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Old 03-24-2013, 01:08 PM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
I'm not sure if this is even a biblical idea; I think it's a kind of anachronism if we consign philosophical concepts of a timeless eternity that were developed later, e.g. in the Middle Ages (or outside the biblical context, e.g. Plato) to the biblical terms; but this is the result when we interpret the Bible not by itself but on the authority of so called "churchfathers", Greek philosophy and tradition. I realized this applies to Protestants as much as it does to Catholics.

God is, was and will always be, God is immortal, God knows all past, present and future. Everthing else is mere speculation, for example if time itself was created or if God dwells in a sphere outside time, i.e. "eternity". The Bible says that God created the aions (Hebrews 1:2) and therefore was before the aions. The Bible also speaks of "before aionios times" (Romans 16:25, Titus 1:2, 2 Timothy 1:9), which indicates I think that time existed before the aions and maybe is uncreated (of course aionios in these verses cannot mean eternal or endless as these times obviously ended), but this is all mere speculation and philosophy.
Thanks for this response. I have always thought there had to be some sort of 'time' myself but others have felt the need to correct me. Have a great Sunday.

 
Old 03-24-2013, 01:49 PM
 
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Here are the 2 words and their meanings.

165 aion ahee-ohn' from the same as 104; properly, an age; by extension, perpetuity (also past); by implication, the world; specially (Jewish) a Messianic period (present or future):--age, course, eternal, (for) ever(-more), (n-)ever, (beginning of the , while the) world (began, without end).

166 aionios ahee-o'-nee-os from 165; perpetual (also used of past time, or past and future as well):--eternal, for ever, everlasting, world (began). see GREEK for 165

To claim both words never means eternal or forever or everlasting is to simply deny the truth.
 
Old 03-24-2013, 02:22 PM
 
Location: Florida
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
It's not hard to understand.
As I understand it, God has no beginning and no end. GOD IS. In that sense, God is eternal (in the sense that we think of eternal as meaning EVER-LASTING or WITHOUT END) and only God has immortality. We on the other hand do have a beginning and an end. We are born into this world and we will go back to the dust. Jesus came that we might have life eternal in this age and in the ages to come. What is eternal life?
And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. John 17:3

Those who do not KNOW GOD, do not have eternal life.
They are the dead who bury the dead that Jesus referred to. That doesn't mean they will never have life. But they do not have life in this age.
One can only KNOW God if God reveals himself to someone. It is not up to us, but up to God to reveal Christ in our hearts. TO KNOW speaks of intimacy (to knowing ABOUT)
For what man knows the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knows no man, but the Spirit of God.

1 Corinthians 2:11

The word eternal as in ETERNAL LIFE is not a reference to length of time, but of quality and essence, for we know that everyone is biologically alive, but not everyone is ALIVE in CHRIST (yet).
 
Old 03-24-2013, 02:23 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
A couple of facts about the worm/maggot.

They clean the wounds by dissolving dead and infected tissue
They disinfect the wound (kill bacteria);
They speed the rate of healing.
on that
Quote:
Originally Posted by DennisWayne View Post
But that is not in the context of the scripture. This worm will eat and never die and the fire will continue to burn forever. This is a never ending event. Not some purification ritual.
It is the context. Job called Jesus a worm.





The undying worm

To the light bed-time reader, the Gospel of Mark, apparently, provides us with a little more information about Gehenna which is not mentioned elsewhere, although beneath the surface, rather than support the view of a literal Hell, it actually undermines it:

'...And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched. Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off. It is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast onto hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched. Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out. It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched. For everyone shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. Salt is good. But if the salt have lost its saltiness, wherewith shall ye season it. Have salt in yourselves and have peace one with another...' (Mark 9:43-50)
Aside of the contingent hypothesis, the term "enter into life," in these verses, surprisingly, has nothing to do with entering into the after-life, or heaven. The word "enter" is rendered from the Greek word eisercomai eiserchomai, which means to come in, or go out, but can also be used metaphorically to denote entrance into a condition, or state. These words, therefore, refer to vitality, and entering into fullness of life whilst in this world, rather than the next. To be maimed, of course, is to be wounded, injured, or hurt, be that physically, or psychologically, and the result of removing a stumbling block from some individuals would have exactly that effect - giving up sin hurts, in other words.

The term "…Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched…" is repeated three times in this verse, thus, among other things, drawing the attention of the reader to its importance. The "worm" in this verse is rendered from the Greek word skwlhx skolex, the name given to a specific type of worm, which feeds on decaying matter - a detritivore in fact. The equivalent Hebrew word is hmr rimmah, a worm, or maggot, also associated with decay. Now the writer of Mark's Gospel would have us believe that Jesus is quoting from the Old Testament book of Isaiah, but the problem with this, is that the worm referred to in Isaiah is not associated with decay at all - quite the opposite, in fact:

For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh (Isaiah 66:22-24).

The Hebrew word used here is elwt towla, meaning specifically coccus ilicis, the female worm, or grub, from which, the much sort after, scarlet dye was extracted. In the Old Testament the word is nearly always translated as "scarlet," the colour predominantly associated with wealth and importance, etc., and, not surprisingly, a colour which was a prominent feature of the Tabernacle. Perhaps the most important occurrence of this word, though, is in the book of Job, where it is used in reference to, none other than, "the son of man" himself:

How much less man, that is a worm? [rimmah] and the son of man, which is a worm? [towla]. (Job 25:6)

Job makes it clear that there is a distinction to be made between these two worms, as one is associated with death and decay [rimmah], the other with royalty, the "son of man" [towla]. The life-cycle of the towla was, then, evidently, symbolic of the shedding of Jesus' blood on the cross - or on a tree, as Acts would have it - and, subsequently, the resurrection and the eternal life which was to follow. That this is the sense in which towla is used in Isaiah 66 is evident from other words used in verse 24; the word "abhorring," for example, comes from the Hebrew word Nward dera'own, which can also be translated as aversion or contempt, and to hold someone in contempt is, of course, to despise them. That Jesus was "a reproach of men, and despised of the people" is attested to in Psalm 22:6, where again, we find the word towla translated as worm. The word "unto" is rendered from the Hebrew word la 'el which can also mean by, and the word "flesh" is rendered from the Hebrew word rsb basar which can also mean mankind.

It should also be remembered that the latter portion of the book of Isaiah was, for the most part, written to reassure those in Jerusalem, that God was going to fulfil his promises to the faithful. The fate of the rebellious, however, is also described, especially in chapter 65:1-16, for example, and it is this fate which is aptly summed up in chapter 66:24, in the term "…the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me." This is evident from the fact that the word transgressed is rendered from the Hebrew word evp pasha, which also means to rebel.

What is more important, though, is that the "worm" and the "fire" mentioned here, does not refer to those who have "transgressed" or rebelled against the Lord. The worm here is towla, which was not a symbol of death or decay, but rather, a symbol of wealth, status, and eternal life through the son of man. So it is the faithful who shall "go forth" and it is "their seed" and "their name," that will remain, just as the "new heavens and the new earth," but it is they, also, who will be "despised by all mankind," just as Jesus was. It is their fire which shall not be quenched, not the fire of the carcasses of the rebellious.

It would appear then, that the writer of Mark, either did not know the real significance and symbolism of the undying worm when he constructed his gospel, or he simply could not find a Greek equivalent for it. In the latter case, it remains a mystery why he did not, then, transliterate the Hebrew towla, instead of using the Greek word skolex. That the writer of the Gospel of Mark completely misses the importance of the Old Testament symbology has proved to be totally misleading, for it presents the unwary reader with what appears to be just another allusion to Hell, when in fact, it is not.
 
Old 03-24-2013, 02:35 PM
 
Location: Germany
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I would prefer a real dictionary instead of Strong's

aiôn
aiônios

Quote:
To claim both words never means eternal or forever or everlasting is to simply deny the truth.
I have not claimed that it NEVER means everlasting, aionios is everlasting e.g. when applied to an endless aion, but these words do not mean endless by itself as for example "endless" means by itself endless.

There is no need to prove that aionios NEVER means endless in order to defend universalism but it is enough to provide a single instance (in the Bible) where it does not, to show that verses like Matthew 25:46 do not contradict universalism by neccessity. This has been proven over and over again and even the people on CARM admit this if I remember correctly.

On the other hand, as soon aionios has two possible meanings, finite and infinite, you can no longer build your doctrine on this very word. It is you who have to prove that aionios ALWAYS means endless, are you able to do this? And please NO Strong numbers

I think it is both impossible to prove that a word never means this or always means that. But this does affect the doctrine of everlasting punishment more than universalism as the doctrine of everlasting punishment is build on the word "everlasting" whereas universalism is build on other verses.
 
Old 03-24-2013, 03:22 PM
 
4,614 posts, read 2,277,376 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
There is no need to prove that aionios NEVER means endless in order to defend universalism but it is enough to provide a single instance (in the Bible) where it does not, to show that verses like Matthew 25:46 do not contradict universalism by neccessity.
'everlasting punishment' would be equal to 2nd Thessalonians 1 v 9 equating being punished with: everlasting destruction.

Such as: the wicked being destroyed forever- Psalm 92 v 7

Jesus taught: everlasting life or perish [ be destroyed ] at John 3 v 16

That is why at 2nd Peter 3 v 9 the choice is given: repent or perish [ be destroyed ]

Turn away [ repent ] and live according to Ezekiel 33 v 11

Save one's soul from being destroyed as gospel writer Luke wrote at Acts 3 v 23
 
Old 03-24-2013, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pneuma View Post
Akatalutos-Endless: indissoluble, not subject to destruction

Aphthartos-incorruptible: uncorrupted, not liable to corruption or decay, imperishable

Amarantos-fadeth not away: not fading away, unfading, perennial

And not ONCE are any of these words which carry the meaning of endlessness used in the judgments of God.
Do any of these describe God? Or does God describe Himself with any of these terms?
 
Old 03-24-2013, 05:15 PM
 
367 posts, read 281,189 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post



I have not claimed that it NEVER means everlasting, aionios is everlasting e.g. when applied to an endless aion, but these words do not mean endless by itself as for example "endless" means by itself endless.

There is no need to prove that aionios NEVER means endless in order to defend universalism but it is enough to provide a single instance (in the Bible) where it does not, to show that verses like Matthew 25:46 do not contradict universalism by neccessity. This has been proven over and over again and even the people on CARM admit this if I remember correctly.

On the other hand, as soon aionios has two possible meanings, finite and infinite, you can no longer build your doctrine on this very word. It is you who have to prove that aionios ALWAYS means endless, are you able to do this? And please NO Strong numbers

I think it is both impossible to prove that a word never means this or always means that. But this does affect the doctrine of everlasting punishment more than universalism as the doctrine of everlasting punishment is build on the word "everlasting" whereas universalism is build on other verses.
The point is the word is used both ways. To say that one use of it in one way make it never mean it's other meanings anywhere else is pure foolishness.

Storngs is correct so is a definitive source. I have proven over and over that your wrong but you refuse to admit the simple fact that your wrong. I cannot help anyone who refuses the truth. Sorry!
 
Old 03-24-2013, 05:17 PM
 
367 posts, read 281,189 times
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Default This should end the discussion once and for all!

So what is the Hebrew word for "eternal" or "forever" or "eternal"?

Last edited by DennisWayne; 03-24-2013 at 05:56 PM..
 
Old 03-25-2013, 12:59 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DennisWayne View Post
So what is the Hebrew word for "eternal" or "forever" or "eternal"?
The Hebrew term or word Olam, merely pertains to that which is over the horizon; not an eternity.
There is nothing, no word in the Scriptures that relates to an Eternal time without beginning or end.

"The watering pot and pruning knife of time, cuts away the twigs and branches for new growth."


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