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View Poll Results: I believe the 1000 year reign is....
a literal 1000 year period of time to come. 44 68.75%
a literal 1000 year period of time which has already started. 2 3.13%
the spiritual reign of Christ with believers in the new dispensation in which we live. 8 12.50%
I'm not sure. 10 15.63%
Voters: 64. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 05-27-2008, 06:34 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 10,017,149 times
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[quote=Hiram;3897603]
Quote:
Originally Posted by DayoftheLord View Post
[/color]

Could you please define "Holy Spirit" for me.
The Holy Spirit is part of the Holy Trinity. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit (Ghost). When you accept Jesus as Savior, the Holy Spirit is sent to reside in you and with you, guiding in all things Spiritual. When I was saved, I asked for peace and Biblical clarity. And I received both. Some like to say that because I say the Holy Spirit has guided me through the scriptures and their interpretations, that I think I have the "only" answer. What I have is a belief system and I think that is really important. If the Spirit guides me in another direction, then I will follow. I don't care to argue about what I believe about Biblical prophecy, but I will share what I believe.

The basic knowledge and understanding of scriptures is there with me now because of the Holy Spirit. The Bible is the LIVING Word of God, it applies to the past, present and future. When you go searching in the Bible with the Holy Spirit guiding you for a scripture to apply to your certain circumstance and give encouragement, it may be a scripture you have read before a 100 times but the Spirit will give you a whole new meaning this time. It's amazing. That's why the Bible is alive and breathing. It is so important to stay in the Word like the Bible teaches to grow as a Christian.
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Old 05-28-2008, 12:46 AM
 
348 posts, read 476,863 times
Reputation: 57
Default Josephus and Cloud Comings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiram View Post
For anyone who is serious about increasing their knowledge about what happened at Jerusalem and linking some of history together with what has been said here then I suggest reading, Flavius Josephus - The Wars Of The Jews Book VI.

http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-6.htm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiram View Post

It is simple, "cloud comings" are all over the OT, but people don't want to look at it. Josephus records Christ cloud coming, (http://www.ccel.org/j/josephus/works/war-6.htmb ) but not many interested at looking at it. Other ancient writings have recorded it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DayoftheLord View Post
Quote:
Flavius Josephus was nothing but a Jewish historian.
Quote:
May I remind you that he is not a part of God's Holy Word,
and what has been done here and the consequences of doing such a thing as IT IS in the scriptures:
Revelation 22:18-19
"I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book. If anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book."
DayoftheLord * * You somehow misunderstood me, as you can see in my quotes. Nowhere do I say that Josephus was inspired by the indwelling of the holy spirit when he wrote what he saw. I agree with you, he was just a historian. Thank you though for reading my post and taking the concern to mention it to me. Much appreciated!

I'm glad that you have taken some interest in him, and have you read much about Josephus or other historians? It has become an interest of mine. Some people like to watch Oprah, and hockey, I like to study ancient history to do with the Jews, Even Plato or Alexander the Great.

Tremendous volumes of ancient history were destroyed with the Alexandrian Library in A.D.391. The official history written by historians in the first century was only that which was approved by the Roman Emperor. So... I think we are very fortunate to have these accounts of what took place in Jerusalem.

Josephus, a Jewish priest and one of the ten Jewish generals who started the war with Rome in 66 A.D., gives his eyewitness account of that gruesome judgment which Jesus said was, "such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall" (Matt. 24:21)

A few days later Jesus (at His trial) said to the High Priest & the Sanhedrin, "[It is as] you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter YOU will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Matthew 26:64" Josephus, Tacitus, Eusebius and the Talmud all record the FACT that God's presence was perceived at that awesome destruction. They even record that angelic armies were seen in the clouds.

So, I hope that this clears things up a bit and I am sorry if I mislead you to believe that I was referring Josephus as "inspired" writtings. I think God did play a special part in his life though, as we have these writings to reference back to as we study diligently and make ourselves approved of God. Again, cloud comings are recorded in the Old Testament, and it can be for our benefit today. This is quite often how God would pass judgment or destroy and punish a nation. And this is why we must use scripture to interpret scripture and not man's understanding.

Well, I hope this post isn't too long. Thanks for now and take care!
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Old 05-28-2008, 06:31 AM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 10,017,149 times
Reputation: 58210
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiram View Post
DayoftheLord * * You somehow misunderstood me, as you can see in my quotes. Nowhere do I say that Josephus was inspired by the indwelling of the holy spirit when he wrote what he saw. I agree with you, he was just a historian. Thank you though for reading my post and taking the concern to mention it to me. Much appreciated!

I'm glad that you have taken some interest in him, and have you read much about Josephus or other historians? It has become an interest of mine. Some people like to watch Oprah, and hockey, I like to study ancient history to do with the Jews, Even Plato or Alexander the Great.

Tremendous volumes of ancient history were destroyed with the Alexandrian Library in A.D.391. The official history written by historians in the first century was only that which was approved by the Roman Emperor. So... I think we are very fortunate to have these accounts of what took place in Jerusalem.

Josephus, a Jewish priest and one of the ten Jewish generals who started the war with Rome in 66 A.D., gives his eyewitness account of that gruesome judgment which Jesus said was, "such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall" (Matt. 24:21)

A few days later Jesus (at His trial) said to the High Priest & the Sanhedrin, "[It is as] you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter YOU will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven. Matthew 26:64" Josephus, Tacitus, Eusebius and the Talmud all record the FACT that God's presence was perceived at that awesome destruction. They even record that angelic armies were seen in the clouds.

So, I hope that this clears things up a bit and I am sorry if I mislead you to believe that I was referring Josephus as "inspired" writtings. I think God did play a special part in his life though, as we have these writings to reference back to as we study diligently and make ourselves approved of God. Again, cloud comings are recorded in the Old Testament, and it can be for our benefit today. This is quite often how God would pass judgment or destroy and punish a nation. And this is why we must use scripture to interpret scripture and not man's understanding.

Well, I hope this post isn't too long. Thanks for now and take care!
I agree that studying history is important to some, not so much to others. But within Preterist's and your posts, you both seem to be taking what Josephus wrote as a way to add to or re-arrange the scriptures. That is where the problem lies. That is adding to God's Holy Word, which He strongly warns against in Revelation as I quoted before.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with reading a Jewish historian's writings. But you have to keep it separate from the Word of God. Keep it in perspective for what it is, nothing else. I would suggest not reading so much outside information for a while so as not to confuse or infuse it with scripture.....and take a year to study just the Bible. Using the Bible only. No outside influences to confuse with interpretations. The Bible and the Holy Spirit only. Invest in a good study Bible, concordance, dictionaries...and spread it all out and dig in. The Spirit will start revealing things to you that will have you so excited that hours will pass by before you know it.

The Bible really is alive and breathing. It was meant to be read and studied constantly because God is in it, right now. I hope that you do this and pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you through it. It is an amazing, supernatural experience that can't be explained....only experienced. God bless you!!
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Old 05-28-2008, 08:16 PM
 
348 posts, read 476,863 times
Reputation: 57
Default Test the Spirit

Quote:
Originally Posted by DayoftheLord View Post

The Holy Spirit is part of the Holy Trinity. God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit (Ghost). When you accept Jesus as Savior, the Holy Spirit is sent to reside in you and with you, guiding in all things Spiritual. When I was saved, I asked for peace and Biblical clarity. And I received both. Some like to say that because I say the Holy Spirit has guided me through the scriptures and their interpretations, that I think I have the "only" answer. What I have is a belief system and I think that is really important. If the Spirit guides me in another direction, then I will follow. I don't care to argue about what I believe about Biblical prophecy, but I will share what I believe.

The basic knowledge and understanding of scriptures is there with me now because of the Holy Spirit. The Bible is the LIVING Word of God, it applies to the past, present and future. When you go searching in the Bible with the Holy Spirit guiding you for a scripture to apply to your certain circumstance and give encouragement, it may be a scripture you have read before a 100 times but the Spirit will give you a whole new meaning this time. It's amazing. That's why the Bible is alive and breathing. It is so important to stay in the Word like the Bible teaches to grow as a Christian.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DayoftheLord View Post
I agree that studying history is important to some, not so much to others. But within Preterist's and your posts, you both seem to be taking what Josephus wrote as a way to add to or re-arrange the scriptures. That is where the problem lies. That is adding to God's Holy Word, which He strongly warns against in Revelation as I quoted before.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with reading a Jewish historian's writings. But you have to keep it separate from the Word of God. Keep it in perspective for what it is, nothing else. I would suggest not reading so much outside information for a while so as not to confuse or infuse it with scripture.....and take a year to study just the Bible. Using the Bible only. No outside influences to confuse with interpretations. The Bible and the Holy Spirit only. Invest in a good study Bible, concordance, dictionaries...and spread it all out and dig in. The Spirit will start revealing things to you that will have you so excited that hours will pass by before you know it.

The Bible really is alive and breathing. It was meant to be read and studied constantly because God is in it, right now. I hope that you do this and pray for the Holy Spirit to guide you through it. It is an amazing, supernatural experience that can't be explained....only experienced. God bless you!!
1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.


Thanks for all the information. Three posts and nothing for scripture except your trying to demonize me for looking at someone's writing. You don't intimidate me.

In your explanation of what or who the holy spirit is you failed to use any scripture. Ironic, (because scripture is spirit) especially we will see what Christ had to say about the Spirit.
John 6:63, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

The word is spirit, it changes us, and give us life. If you were so concerned about me, I would have thought you might have used "words" of God. They are "spirit" and they are life. Perhaps you have a secret agenda? The words you gave to me were your words. They were fleshly.

Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

In your rebukes here to Preterist and myself, you had the chance to use the "sword" of the Spirit, but you didn't.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Acts 2:38-41 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him." And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation." So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls

Even Satan used scripture when he tried to rebuke our Lord. Matthew 4:5-6
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Old 05-28-2008, 08:38 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 10,017,149 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hiram View Post
1 John 4:1 Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world.


Thanks for all the information. Three posts and nothing for scripture except your trying to demonize me for looking at someone's writing. You don't intimidate me.

In your explanation of what or who the holy spirit is you failed to use any scripture. Ironic, (because scripture is spirit) especially we will see what Christ had to say about the Spirit.
John 6:63, "It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life."

The word is spirit, it changes us, and give us life. If you were so concerned about me, I would have thought you might have used "words" of God. They are "spirit" and they are life. Perhaps you have a secret agenda? The words you gave to me were your words. They were fleshly.

Ephesians 6:17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

In your rebukes here to Preterist and myself, you had the chance to use the "sword" of the Spirit, but you didn't.

1 Timothy 4:1 Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;

Acts 2:38-41 And Peter said to them, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him." And he testified with many other words and exhorted them, saying, "Save yourselves from this crooked generation." So those who received his word were baptized, and there were added that day about three thousand souls

Even Satan used scripture when he tried to rebuke our Lord. Matthew 4:5-6
Wow...talk about going from 0 to 60! Your post before this one you seemed quite gracious ----maybe because you thought I was interested in what Josephus had to say. Now, you are obviously angry because I didn't agree with you. My ability to quote scripture has nothing to do with your anger or hostility. I think my words hit home and struck a nerve, so maybe you should look more closely at what it is you are doing to arrive at your interpretations. It's been my experience so far that it doesn't matter what I say or how much scripture I quote. I'm not interested in arguments about what I believe, but I have every right to share what I believe.
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Old 05-28-2008, 09:25 PM
 
Location: God's Kingdom !!
122 posts, read 153,548 times
Reputation: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by cg81 View Post
I believe this angel is Jesus, who came down to save us from the curse of sin. His gift of salvation “stomped on Satan’s head” and overthrew the monopoly Satan had over our souls.. if Christ had not come, Satan would have “free reign”, with no hope for our souls.

Many prophecies, especially in Isaiah, in the Old Testament point to the coming of the Messiah as a time of blessing and peace for all nations! Isaiah 61:1 ¶ The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound; Is this not the time we are living in? The authority of Satan was bound..”Deceive the nations no more” Now the gospel is for everyone..everyone has a chance. People still disregard the call, and become deceived… but God will hold them accountable for this. There is a way for everyone, and Satan no longer has the monopoly.

The church has authority over sin. We are to have authority over sin also; “Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies.” 1 John 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. 5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God? We as Christians are to reign and overcome.. with God’s help! Not on our own strength. In this sense we are reigning with Him. The martyrs and true believers of the past are part of this reign.

The “first resurrection” is the being made spiritually alive through accepting Jesus sacrifice.. being “born again”. If we take part in this first resurrection, the “second death” (being eternally lost) will have no power over us. Verse 5 refers to those who are spiritually dead by not accepting the first resurrection. After the thousand years are finished (when Christ returns) all will live again and be judged.

If we look at the world around us, it appears that Satan is being loosed. There is an anti-Christian undercurrent that is gaining strength.. “False teaching” is rampant in churches today, and sin is not being judged, not being called sin. “It’s all okay..” Society, as was mentioned in another thread, is becoming “hostile to biblical law”. “Men’s hearts are failing them for fear.” There is much unrest, turmoil, stress and insecurity. Matthew 24:22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect’s sake those days shall be shortened. I believe that Jesus is referring to this time.. It will become very difficult to live a true Christian life.. with all the deception around already, many are losing the way. Matthew 24:23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. 24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. 27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Isn’t this happening today? Evangelists doing “great signs and wonders”, yet where is the “real thing?” Promoting sin, saying “God loves everybody, you’ll be okay.” Deceptive thinking that has a way of affecting all of us.

As I mentioned, the world is growing more hostile to a self-denied, “bible-thumping” Christian. Even “Christians” are hostile to those who truly believe. Truly, the “camp of the saints” is being compassed about. But Christ will return, before “the very elect will be deceived”, and will judge the world and it’s wickedness.

I believe that all that is left as far as prophecy is Christ’s return to judge the world, and our subsequent eternal reward. We do not know how much time we have left, but it will undoubtedly get a lot worse. Our pastor this Sunday talked about this.. How committed am I? Am I prepared for the future spiritual battles?
Everything wrote here I agree with! I believe if christians will hear the still small voice calling in this, we will see such a revival. Christians will truly fall at the feet of Jesus and turn to their brother in love and encouragment. The spiritual battles have begun and will intensify as the days unfold.

As it says in 1Peter 3:11-12a; 14-15a
Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God.
Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation.

We are living in the very hour and will see the Lord coming for His Bride. It is a spiritual reign now. I believe we are in the l000 year reign with Christ now. All the scripture give this revelation. Even these, speak of the coming of God and to be found without spot and blameless.
Be ready for even the elect can be deceived if the day is not shortened.
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Old 05-29-2008, 09:40 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,095,936 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveLadybugs! View Post
Everything wrote here I agree with! I believe if christians will hear the still small voice calling in this, we will see such a revival. Christians will truly fall at the feet of Jesus and turn to their brother in love and encouragment. The spiritual battles have begun and will intensify as the days unfold.

As it says in 1Peter 3:11-12a; 14-15a
Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God.
Therefore, beloved, looking forward to these things, be diligent to be found by Him in peace, without spot and blameless; and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation.

We are living in the very hour and will see the Lord coming for His Bride. It is a spiritual reign now. I believe we are in the l000 year reign with Christ now. All the scripture give this revelation. Even these, speak of the coming of God and to be found without spot and blameless.
Be ready for even the elect can be deceived if the day is not shortened.
LoveLadyBugs--What was going to be dissolved (2 Peter 3)? And what elect could have been deceived if the days were not shortened (Matt. 24)? What are the contexts of the verses you quoted?

2 Peter 3:10--That which was to be dissolved were the "elements." These have nothing to do with the chemical make up of the earth (atoms, neutrons, or protons). The word in the Greek is stoicheia. In EVERY instance it has to do with the teachings of men, the rudiments of the law, or the oracles of God. There is nothing physical about it.

Here are the only uses of the word stoicheia in the NT:

These are Paul's words to the Galatians concerning the freedom they have in Christ from their bondage to the things of the world.

Galatians 4:3--"Even so, we, when we were children, were in bondage under
the elements (stoicheia) of the world."
Galatians 4:9--"after having known God, . . . how is it that you turn again to
the weak and beggarly elements (stoicheia), to which you desire to be in bondage?"

These are Paul's words to the Colossians concerning the dangers of the false and deceitful philosophies of man.

Colossians 2:8--"Beware lest anyone cheat you through phihlosophy and empty deceit, according to the traditions of men, according to the basic principles (stoicheia) of the world. and not according to Christ."
Colossians 2:20--Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles (stoicheia) of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations."

The writer of Hebrews here is encouraging his readers to grow to spiritual maturity through partaking of the solid food contained in the "oracles of God."

Hebrews 5:12--"For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles (stoicheia) of the oracles of God." (Note: these "oracles" are given in 6:1, 2).

Peter uses the term stoicheia in the same way it is used in Colossians and Galations. He is speaking about the coming of the day of the Lord--the same day of the Lord for which Jesus told His first-century disciples to watch because it would come unto THEM as a thief in the night (Matthew 25).

2 Peter 3:10--"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements (stoicheia) will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the WORKS that are in it will be burned up."

2 Peter 3:12--"What manner of persons ought YOU to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements (stoicheia) will melt with fervent heat?"

Peter is speaking to his contemporaries concerning things which they expected to happen in their lifetimes. THEY were to live in godly and holy conduct because God was about to destroy that world of the elements (teachings and laws) of men. The heavens and earth of that Old Covenant world was becoming obsolete and vanishing away (see Hebrews 8) to be replaced by the New Covenant, the new heavens and the new earth. It was THEY who were then in their lifetimes looking for "new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells."

The days which were shortened were those days surrounding the Jewish Wars which resulted in the destruction of the Temple and the city of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. That is the context of Matthew 24. Count the "yous" in this passage. These words are not directed to all believers throughout all ages--they were directed at Jesus' disciples standing right there with Him. THEY were to see the abomination of desolation; THEY were to pray that THEIR flight might not be in the winter or on the Sabbath. The tribulation was for their day, and "unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened" (Mat. 24:21-22). The only others besides those to whom Jesus spoke these words who would be involved in this time were those believers of the first-century--pre-A.D.! WE are not the YE!

I encourage you to do word studies--see how terms are used in other places in the Scriptures to help clarify their meanings. Also, always take things in context. Ask yourself: what is the historical context of this passage; to whom are these words spoken or written; how would the first readers or hearers have understood these words, etc.?

Also, ask yourself--am I understanding expressions such as "heavens and earth" in the proper way or is my western mindset getting in the way. Would the Jewish mind have understood this expression differently? How is it used elsewhere?

I say this to myself as I say it to all: Bible study takes hard work and diligence. We must do words studies, cross-referencing, historical background studies, look at the chapters before and after the one under consideration, etc.

Paul exhorted Timothy as he exhorts us all with these words in 2 Timothy 2:15.

"Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

In Christ, Preterist
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Old 06-01-2008, 12:44 PM
 
Location: God's Kingdom !!
122 posts, read 153,548 times
Reputation: 41
Quote:
Originally Posted by Preterist View Post
LoveLadyBugs--What was going to be dissolved (2 Peter 3)? And what elect could have been deceived if the days were not shortened (Matt. 24)? What are the contexts of the verses you quoted?

2 Peter 3:10--That which was to be dissolved were the "elements." These have nothing to do with the chemical make up of the earth (atoms, neutrons, or protons). The word in the Greek is stoicheia. In EVERY instance it has to do with the teachings of men, the rudiments of the law, or the oracles of God. There is nothing physical about it.

Here are the only uses of the word stoicheia in the NT:

These are Paul's words to the Galatians concerning the freedom they have in Christ from their bondage to the things of the world.

PS. Truly I think one needs to re-read what they have posted and see that possibly God is speaking to the original poster....

Galatians 4:3--"Even so, we, when we were children, were in bondage under
the elements (stoicheia) of the world."
Galatians 4:9--"after having known God, . . . how is it that you turn again to
the weak and beggarly elements (stoicheia), to which you desire to be in bondage?"

These are Paul's words to the Colossians concerning the dangers of the false and deceitful philosophies of man.

Colossians 2:8--"Beware lest anyone cheat you through phihlosophy and empty deceit, according to the traditions of men, according to the basic principles (stoicheia) of the world. and not according to Christ."
Colossians 2:20--Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles (stoicheia) of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations."

The writer of Hebrews here is encouraging his readers to grow to spiritual maturity through partaking of the solid food contained in the "oracles of God."

Hebrews 5:12--"For though by this time you ought to be teachers, you need someone to teach you again the first principles (stoicheia) of the oracles of God." (Note: these "oracles" are given in 6:1, 2).

Peter uses the term stoicheia in the same way it is used in Colossians and Galations. He is speaking about the coming of the day of the Lord--the same day of the Lord for which Jesus told His first-century disciples to watch because it would come unto THEM as a thief in the night (Matthew 25).

2 Peter 3:10--"But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements (stoicheia) will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the WORKS that are in it will be burned up."

2 Peter 3:12--"What manner of persons ought YOU to be in holy conduct and godliness, looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements (stoicheia) will melt with fervent heat?"

Peter is speaking to his contemporaries concerning things which they expected to happen in their lifetimes. THEY were to live in godly and holy conduct because God was about to destroy that world of the elements (teachings and laws) of men. The heavens and earth of that Old Covenant world was becoming obsolete and vanishing away (see Hebrews 8) to be replaced by the New Covenant, the new heavens and the new earth. It was THEY who were then in their lifetimes looking for "new heavens and a new earth in which righteousness dwells."

The days which were shortened were those days surrounding the Jewish Wars which resulted in the destruction of the Temple and the city of Jerusalem in A.D. 70. That is the context of Matthew 24. Count the "yous" in this passage. These words are not directed to all believers throughout all ages--they were directed at Jesus' disciples standing right there with Him. THEY were to see the abomination of desolation; THEY were to pray that THEIR flight might not be in the winter or on the Sabbath. The tribulation was for their day, and "unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect's sake those days will be shortened" (Mat. 24:21-22). The only others besides those to whom Jesus spoke these words who would be involved in this time were those believers of the first-century--pre-A.D.! WE are not the YE!

I encourage you to do word studies--see how terms are used in other places in the Scriptures to help clarify their meanings. Also, always take things in context. Ask yourself: what is the historical context of this passage; to whom are these words spoken or written; how would the first readers or hearers have understood these words, etc.?

Also, ask yourself--am I understanding expressions such as "heavens and earth" in the proper way or is my western mindset getting in the way. Would the Jewish mind have understood this expression differently? How is it used elsewhere?

I say this to myself as I say it to all: Bible study takes hard work and diligence. We must do words studies, cross-referencing, historical background studies, look at the chapters before and after the one under consideration, etc.

Paul exhorted Timothy as he exhorts us all with these words in 2 Timothy 2:15.

"Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth."

In Christ, Preterist

Dear Preterist,

I sincerely say to you truly with the humbleness of heart.
I forgive you, that you have taken the liberty to try and correct me and underestimate me in my relationship with the Lord Jesus!
I am not ashame in what I posted and believe. God has gotten me this far in my walk with Him and He doesn't need some poster to come along and tell them something they have no idea about that walk of that individual.

I am not in agreement to what you have posted to other's about the second coming of Christ. I truly have even considered the matter of the spirit that has been in the post that has be represented.
What is the spirit and its motive of this poster?
1. To truly love their brother and to share their understanding in the Spirit of the Lord, or
2. Does this poster come in the attitude of wanting to be correct and straighten everyone out about what they believe, regardless if they are correct or not?

One who is humble in sharing what God may have given them, does not persist in that they are correct and shame or belittle others by telling them they need to study more and to look closer to word's in a blunt manner and etc....This is not the Spirit of God.
To me the options maybe that this is a spirit of pride and maybe a spiritual problem. I don't know, but I will continue to pray for such of one.

PS. Maybe Preterist needs to re-read what they posted to loveladybugs and see that maybe that is who God is speaking too.
I was always taught, the things I share with another have also been speaking to me. How else can one teach but to learn from their own words.
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Old 06-01-2008, 02:13 PM
 
Location: SC Foothills
8,830 posts, read 10,017,149 times
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[quote=LoveLadybugs!;3951873]
Quote:
I am not in agreement to what you have posted to other's about the second coming of Christ.
Quote:
2. Does this poster come in the attitude of wanting to be correct and straighten everyone out about what they believe, regardless if they are correct or not?

One who is humble in sharing what God may have given them, does not persist in that they are correct and shame or belittle others by telling them they need to study more and to look closer to word's in a blunt manner and etc....This is not the Spirit of God.
Amen. My thoughts exactly. The spirit of pride and arrogance.
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Old 06-01-2008, 06:15 PM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,095,936 times
Reputation: 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by LoveLadybugs! View Post
Dear Preterist,

I sincerely say to you truly with the humbleness of heart.
I forgive you, that you have taken the liberty to try and correct me and underestimate me in my relationship with the Lord Jesus!
I am not ashame in what I posted and believe. God has gotten me this far in my walk with Him and He doesn't need some poster to come along and tell them something they have no idea about that walk of that individual.

I am not in agreement to what you have posted to other's about the second coming of Christ. I truly have even considered the matter of the spirit that has been in the post that has be represented.
What is the spirit and its motive of this poster?
1. To truly love their brother and to share their understanding in the Spirit of the Lord, or
2. Does this poster come in the attitude of wanting to be correct and straighten everyone out about what they believe, regardless if they are correct or not?

One who is humble in sharing what God may have given them, does not persist in that they are correct and shame or belittle others by telling them they need to study more and to look closer to word's in a blunt manner and etc....This is not the Spirit of God.
To me the options maybe that this is a spirit of pride and maybe a spiritual problem. I don't know, but I will continue to pray for such of one.

PS. Maybe Preterist needs to re-read what they posted to loveladybugs and see that maybe that is who God is speaking too.
I was always taught, the things I share with another have also been speaking to me. How else can one teach but to learn from their own words.
LoveLadyBugs and DOTL: I am sorry that you have been offended by what I posted, but when did I belittle others? LLB: My MAIN goal here has NOT been to correct others' beliefs about eschatology but to exhort and encourage people to back up what they believe with Scripture! Do you now why you believe what you believe and can you back it up with sound biblical exegesis?

If you disagree with me, that is fine. But I find so many disagreeing by simply telling me what they think or what they believe. That is not Bible study. How is that pride on my part? Would you accept my word that what I endeavor to do is insist that people give sound biblical support for their beliefs? Should we not strengthen each other this way? Please feel free to challenge me also if I present something as though it is my own personal opinion. I strive always to give every verse a thorough investigation.

I never meant to insult, but I will not back down on insisting (NOT that people agree with me) but that we take into consideration the context of passages and, yes, that we do word studies and cross-referencing to help us understand how words are used. Why is my encouraging such an approach prideful and demeaning?

When someone, for example, says to me that the "this generation" of Matthew 24:34 means our generation or another generation besides Jesus' generation, then I am led to challenge why they are giving that expression such a unique meaning. I am encouraging that student to see how that same expression is used elsewhere. Cross-referencing and word studies are fundamental to sound Bible interpretation.

Is it wrong of me to insist that professing student's of God's Word adhere to the very fundamental principles of Bible study (e.g. context, historical setting, the audience relevance, etc.)? I am merely encouraging others and myself to dig deeper and give proper diligence to every passage to make sure that we are properly understanding? Why is that wrong?

What I say to you and expect from you, I say to myself and expect from myself. I will continue to challenge all, INCLUDING MYSELF, to properly exegete God's Word. That is not arrogance, or pride, or belittling or demeaning. That is telling people what they need to hear whether they like it or not. Study to show yourself approved unto God, a workman not needing to be ashamed, RIGHTLY dividing the Word of Truth (2 Tim. 2:15). I thank God for those who have come alongside of me and encouraged me in this way and insisted that I study God's Word thoroughly and lay aside as much as possible my own personal opinions. Again, I hold MYSELF to this same standard. Anyone who has truly read my posts (DOTL has admitted that he likes to merely skim them, but then judges me concerning their content!) knows that I have always given strong scriptural support for my beliefs (e.g. examining verses within their context, thoroughly investigating word meanings, cross-referencing phraseology). There ARE basic principles of Bible study which are promoted and agreed upon by biblical scholars. Ignoring them puts us in danger of misinterpretations and misunderstandings.

In closing let me add--there are some who should be careful whom they accuse of pride and arrogance, and belittling lest they find themselves guilty! You know who you are.

In Christ, Preterist

Last edited by Preterist; 06-01-2008 at 06:38 PM..
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