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God is NOT a killer or murderer, neither in the Old Testament, nor in the New Testament. His ways are not like that of man’s; having a debased mind to do the things, they ought not to do
... through the lusts of their own heart and flesh.
Who hardened Pharaoh's heart?
Who killed Saul?
Who killed the firstborn of Egypt?
"When you are given over to a depraved and unprincipled mind and wicked heart; you will do almost anything."
And the LORD sent Nathan unto David. And he came unto him, and said unto him, There were two men in one city; the one rich, and the other poor.
The rich man had exceeding many flocks and herds:
But the poor man had nothing, save one little ewe lamb, which he had bought and nourished up: and it grew up together with him, and with his children; it did eat of his own meat, and drank of his own cup, and lay in his bosom, and was unto him as a daughter.
And there came a traveller unto the rich man, and he spared to take of his own flock and of his own herd, to dress for the wayfaring man that was come unto him; but took the poor man's lamb, and dressed it for the man that was come to him.
And David's anger was greatly kindled against the man; and he said to Nathan, As the LORD liveth, the man that hath done this thing shall surely die:and he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.
And Nathan said to David,Thou art the man.
The writers of scripture had this tendency to blame God for anything and everything. Ignorant of the principle that we reap from the flesh(not God) what we have sown to the flesh. Galatians 6:8. The writer of this portion of scripture then went onto blame The Lord for the death of the child.
I have noticed that you do not, as I understand it, believe the God we read about who spoke to Moses and lead the People of Israel and who caused the flood is not the god that the "Jesus" you accept is from/of/is (however you choose to view him). Is that an accurate understanding of your faith?
Your answer:
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Not really, Dennis. It is NOT God that is in question . . . there IS only one. It is the ignorant and savage beliefs ABOUT Him that are understandably misguided. That is WHY Christ came. He redeemed God's promise in prophesy to send a Messiah to teach righteousness and correct the misunderstanding of God (lift the veil of ignorance over the OT). Jesus revealed our Father unambiguously through His teachings, life and most especially His horrendous scourging and crucifixion. . . followed by His rebirth as Spirit (resurrection). There should have been no confusion, His love was unconditional even forgiving His torturers and murderers. He smote no one. But the ancient ignorance about a vengeful, jealous, and all too human parody of God that needed to be appeased by blood sacrifices . . . was too strongly indoctrinated in our savage ancestors to be over-written very easily. They twisted the interpretation to conform to their savage beliefs about God's motivations . . . and the churches for their own purposes have perpetuated that ancient ignorance for over 2000+ years.
So I take it I am correct that you do not accept the God we read about (as described in the bible) who spoke to Moses and lead the People of Israel and who caused the flood is not the god that the "Jesus" you accept is from/of/is (however you choose to view him).
My Question:
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Also you seem to believe that most if not all of the Old Testament that deals with God and His commands and judgments are fictitious works of man or at least his misunderstanding of what the real god you believe in intended. Is this right or not?
Your Answer:
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Definitely misunderstandings . . . much as a very young child's interpretations of a parent's motives and actions would be relative to their actual motives and actions. A species childhood is no less a unique period in time than our individual childhoods. This is difficult to see because we all mature and think we are all the same as adults. But the generational and cultural differences can be enormous. My favorite example of the kinds of differences is illustrated by watching the SERIOUS and DRAMATIC silent movies that were responded to very seriously by the adults of that generation. What is your reaction to them? It is unlikely to be serious and dramatic . . . and this only mere decades ago. Imagine what perceptual and motivational differences there would be 2000 - 4000 + years ago in a vastly different culture and circumstances.
So you believe that most of the Old Testament is not Scripture but man's misunderstandings and do not accurately reflect or describe the god you follow?
My Question:
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Also you view the New Testament as partially correct when the text is in line with your view or what you feel the "christ in you" is telling you, of what your "Jesus" came to teach and reveal about your god and other parts that you do on feel this "christ in you" confirms are man's ignorance and confusion. Is this right or not?
Your Answer:
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Christ and His attitude is the exemplar for His Father. Anything NOT consistent or compatible with Christ is NOT of God . . . but is of man's ignorance and superstition. The sermon on the mount, 1 Cor 13, etc. unambiguously described Christ's motivations and attitude . . . God IS love. God has "written in our hearts" the truth He wants us to know. Christ abides with us as the Living Word of God in our consciousness as the Comforter (Holy Spirit) to guide us to the truth. IF we are SINCERE in seeking the truth in "love of God and each other" . . . we will find it as we read scripture and ask (WWJT). We get into trouble when we use the "precepts and doctrines of men" to override what is in our heart using excuses and rationalizations for why anything is NOT compatible with God as love and what we know in our heart is right or wrong (Good or Evil).TE]
So I am right that you pick and choose the parts of the New Testament that you believe are correct based on your feelings you believe are from the "christ in you"? And anything that disagrees with how you feel, which you believe is the "christ in you" is not of your god?
My Comment:
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I often feel like when I am trying to discuss something with you that I give you it's like we are playing a sporting game and I try to show you the rules of the football game I am playing and you come back with the rules to golf you are playing.
Your Response:
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That is the problem . . . we are NOT pets in obedience training learning the rules of the obedience ring. We are children in the process of spiritually maturing into adults to be reborn as Spirit and join Jesus and our Father in the next stage of life.
I don't know if you got my point or not. I was just saying it seems you are coming from one set of rules or source of information from God and I am coming from a different set of rules or source of information from God. We clearly have extremely different views of Scripture and perhaps we even serve different god's and christ's. That's what I am trying to learn.
It is clear to me that the Old Testament is a compendium of various forms of literature from a compilation of the myths and legends through the history (with varying degrees of accuracy as history written by the victors tends to be) through poetry and including some actual prophecy and some real folk and philosophical wisdom. Also clearly the God involved is the same, but the perceptions of the nature of God changed over time and was most spectacularly presented as a tribal war god acknowledged as such, from which perception we get some of the most objectionable imagery we see in the OT. Much of the book has great stories that can be applied to us today as human nature has not changed all that much, though, changing conditions have changed some of the most aggressive characteristics.
The changing perceptions along one line led to such outstanding pronouncements as Micah 6:8, "He has shown you, O mortal, what is good. And what does the LORD require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God." and the prophecy in Jeremiah 31 about a "new covenant." One must always filter the OT records through the mind set of a people living in a fairly violent time an place concerned about their survival as a discrete ethnic group.
The NT is the culmination in the life and ministry of Jesus of the leading of the Israelites to the Way that God would have us relate to Him and to our fellow humans. The recording of that life, ministry and developments immediately following has been subject to "editing" to match later doctrinal and philosophical stances and still bears some traces of the earliest conflicts in ideas about what the new faith should contain, but the basics each person needs to know to accept and grow in that Way are still very much evident to the person who is open to the Spirit.
In other words, "inspired" means just what the Greeks perceived it to mean as "impelled to write according to the person's knowledge."
What I don't believe is that very much of what is presented as doctrine and creeds and dogmas in the historical church is of value in walking in the Way.
I hope that helps, and yes, we have some very different understandings of some fairly basic concepts which affect how we approach the matter of faith. Test the spirits by the "fruit of the spirit" as opposed to seeing what the Bible has to say about any particular problem may be the most basic.
Last edited by nateswift; 04-19-2013 at 07:52 PM..
Reason: added after readig the last response
I don't know if you got my point or not. I was just saying it seems you are coming from one set of rules or source of information from God and I am coming from a different set of rules or source of information from God. We clearly have extremely different views of Scripture and perhaps we even serve different god's and christ's. That's what I am trying to learn.
Speaking for myself as a former Fundamentalist, I am sure I would have been in agreement with much of what you believe, except maybe choice. Today I do not live by rules, but by the influence,persuasion and the conviction of God, which is seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness( which is nothing less than thinking and acting like God), which the man Christ Jesus taught is within us.
If we haven't found the kingdom within us We cannot be living by it.
[mod]delete]
Last edited by Miss Blue; 04-19-2013 at 11:27 PM..
Reason: off topic in this thread
The same God. But He acts differently towards people under the new covenant.
No He doesn't. Everything is still the same. Let me put it in perspective so that you might understand a bit more clearly.
The New Testament is in the Old Testament (concealed)
The Old Testament is in the New Testament (revealed)
Everything that was done in the Old Testament was a "shadow"; a rehearsal if you will, of THAT which was Yet to come.
Without the shedding of blood there can be no remission of sins.
What did the Old Testament Jews do once each year @ passover? They sacrificed a "lamb" (for sins).
When did Jesus Die? He died on the exact same day - PASSOVER -
The rituals they were rehearsing for a long long time; were a shadow of Christ which was yet to come. Christ had no control over when they would kill him. God did - He is an expert at using people to accomplish HIS WILL.
This is why God went through so much trouble to PREDICT EVERYTHING ACCURATELY LONG BEFORE IT EVER HAPPENED.
It's called prophecy or PROOF POSITIVE!
The Old Covenant was "The Law" - That had to be done away with - BUT NOT UNTIL someone could fulfill ALL OF IT.
The Law was our Instructor to bring us to Christ - Galatians
Now we are under The New Covenant = Grace unmerited favor - No one deserves it - It can't be earned or paid for.
For by Grace are you saved through faith and that not of yourselves; It is a gift of God not by works lest ANY should boast!
Read the life of King David and tell me He wasn't under the same Grace.
He was a murderer an adulterous king and a thief; but God said: concerning David - He is the apple of my eye.
Don't you find it odd? That God used so many different people that were guilty of murder to write his WORDS??
Moses, David, Peter, Paul etc. It's a long list. Why didn't he use "nice people" ?? (hint): There is no such thing in God's eye
No part of God's character was left behind when it comes to the life of Christ Jesus; just man's ideologies.
Tell me: Did Jesus kill or murder anyone? Did he slaughter women and children? Did he call down fire to destroy humanity?
Apparently, the OP has much to learn. Especially, when it comes to the god of this world, and its adversity to truth.
He (Jesus) came unto his own;(Jews) But the (Jews) accepted HIM not!
There is a specific reason why the Jews didn't accept HIM. It had nothing to do with them - It had everything to do with God "blinding" them to the truth UNTIL the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled - those are HIS WORDS - Not mine!
No part of God's character was left behind when it comes to the life of Christ Jesus; just man's ideologies.
Tell me: Did Jesus kill or murder anyone? Did he slaughter women and children? Did he call down fire to destroy humanity?
Apparently, the OP has much to learn. Especially, when it comes to the god of this world, and its adversity to truth.
Good point, Jerwade. I am astonished by how many Christians crave violence. But really, it comes as no surprise to me on this forum when people call me a child of Satan whenever I speak of the gospel of peace and herald the depth of God's love and grace ...
So I take it I am correct that you do not accept the God we read about (as described in the bible) who spoke to Moses and lead the People of Israel and who caused the flood is not the god that the "Jesus" you accept is from/of/is (however you choose to view him).
No you are not correct at all in your attempts to understand my views. you insist on placing them into YOUR preferred perspective to be dismissed. We believe in the same God because there is only ONE. We believe in the Same Christ because there is only ONE. We believe Christ is the Living Word of God. We believe the same scripture is God INSPIRED (but NOT DICTATED) . . . meaning they had to be interpreted by the receivers of the inspirations using THEIR knowledge, understanding and beliefs about God. What we disagree significantly about is what God's motivations were and are . . . and what was and was NOT attributable to Him from the lessons, stories, fables, parables, and recordings in the scriptures.
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So you believe that most of the Old Testament is not Scripture but man's misunderstandings and do not accurately reflect or describe the god you follow?
No . . . the OT is scripture inspired by God . . . just NOT infallible or inerrant BECAUSE the inspirations were interpreted by ignorant and superstitious men with savage beliefs about a vengeful human parody of God who required blood sacrifices to appease His wrath.Their beliefs do not accurately reflect or describe Christ's Father our loving God as revealed and exemplified by Jesus. They do not accurately reflect or describe the God JESUS followed.
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So I am right that you pick and choose the parts of the New Testament that you believe are correct based on your feelings you believe are from the "christ in you"? And anything that disagrees with how you feel, which you believe is the "christ in you" is not of your god?
No . . . I interpret the scripture using the "mind of Christ" and the Christ in ALL of us asking WWJT. Anything that is NOT compatible with what Christ taught and did is NOT accurate and needs to be reconsidered. If it is interpreted using the motives and human weakness attributed to Jehovah by our ignorant savage ancestors . . . it must be reinterpreted using the motives and lack of weaknesses of Christ and His loving Father. God IS love. That cannot be emphasized enough. God does not just give love or feel love . . . God IS Love itself. When we produce the feelings of agape love . . . we are producing a potential part of God. That is why we are commanded to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. We are strengthening our embryo Spirit to mature in God's love.
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I don't know if you got my point or not. I was just saying it seems you are coming from one set of rules or source of information from God and I am coming from a different set of rules or source of information from God. We clearly have extremely different views of Scripture and perhaps we even serve different god's and christ's. That's what I am trying to learn.
We can only serve the ONE God that exists and the ONE Christ that exists, Dennis. There ARE no others! We can be right or wrong about what we believe about them . . . but we have no real choice in the matter.
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