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I wouldn't even consider reading this thread, when the answer is so simple. Just one final comment on this: Don't bother paying attention to Mystic's attempts do deal with the Greek. The phrase he referenced is easily translatable and has been done so in the Greek in modern translations. (John's Greek is the simplest in the New Testament) If you have a good translation, unless the person has been extensively trained, don't bother with their "hidden meaning" crap. You can trust what's written in the English.
It is always good to hear from the supreme AUTHORITIES whenever they deign to offer their opinions on the "crap" that is posted here.
I wouldn't even consider reading this thread, when the answer is so simple. Just one final comment on this: Don't bother paying attention to Mystic's attempts do deal with the Greek. The phrase he referenced is easily translatable and has been done so in the Greek in modern translations. (John's Greek is the simplest in the New Testament) If you have a good translation, unless the person has been extensively trained, don't bother with their "hidden meaning" crap. You can trust what's written in the English.
Crap is an American slang term (English).
Perhaps, you could put that in the Greek?
Your accusation that I have a desire to condemn anyone is false. We are all born already under condemnation.
The Bible teaches the reality of the lake of fire, therefore, so do I.
It is the Universalists who misrepresent God. Not me.
But you are free to think whatever you want.
Mike - A couple of people in this discussion have already admitted elsewhere that they would not worship a God who would punish people - so in their minds, they put their own restrictions upon God to act as they wish. As long as God is subject to their requirements, they can make Him into their desires - and these discussions will be fruitless.
But I also understand the desire to not let these heresies go unchallenged and take root within others.
Mike - A couple of people in this discussion have already admitted elsewhere that they would not worship a God who would punish people..
Wait. Are you talking about a god who would "punish" people as in them reaping what they sow, in order for them to LEARN. In order for them to understand the error of non-love.
OR
are you talking about a God who would keep human beings alive in a neverending state of suffering and torment for things (during an average lifespan, say 8o years) that they may have done or may not have "believed" (or whatever is the criteria for a NEVERENDING state of suffering and torment)?
Some will bow down and worship God (who IS Love.)
Others will bow down and worship OUT OF FEAR, A god who would punish infinitely, MINDLESSLY for finite "crimes".
Mike - A couple of people in this discussion have already admitted elsewhere that they would not worship a God who would punish people - so in their minds, they put their own restrictions upon God to act as they wish. As long as God is subject to their requirements, they can make Him into their desires - and these discussions will be fruitless.
But I also understand the desire to not let these heresies go unchallenged and take root within others.
I for one will stand up and be counted and will say I refuse to believe and bow down to the god that is embraced by fundamentalism, the god that acts by the same nature as Nebuchadnezzar , who sent out a decree that all who would not bow down and worship the image of himself, would be cast in the fiery furnace, then justifies the nature of their god that they believe in by saying their god's ways are higher than ours.
I for one will stand up and be counted and will say I refuse to believe and bow down to the god that is embraced by fundamentalism, the god that acts by the same nature as Nebuchadnezzar , who sent out a decree that all who would not bow down and worship the image of himself, would be cast in the fiery furnace, then justifies the nature of their god that they believe in by saying their god's ways are higher than ours.
I for one will stand up and be counted and will say I refuse to believe and bow down to the god that is embraced by fundamentalism, the god that acts by the same nature as Nebuchadnezzar , who sent out a decree that all who would not bow down and worship the image of himself, would be cast in the fiery furnace, then justifies the nature of their god that they believe in by saying their god's ways are higher than ours.
Let me restate what the difference is - because it is NOT a matter of eternal punishment.
The issue is the fact that you (and the others) do not trust God if He acts outside of your parameters.
I have no problem "allowing" God to act as He wishes whether I am right or wrong.
THAT is the difference. THAT is you making up a God of your own desires - rather that dealing with the God that exists.
Let me restate what the difference is - because it is NOT a matter of eternal punishment.
The issue is the fact that you (and the others) do not trust God if He acts outside of your parameters.
I have no problem allowing God to act as He wishes whether I am right or wrong.
THAT is the difference.
If trusting god to you is saving your skin fom hell, can I introduce you to the man Christ Jesus whom I implicitly trust in,because he said you believe in God( his existence), believe also in me, which the scripture also testifies that HE is the word of God, that HE is your Savior from everything in your life you have failed to save yourself from. Savior ? From hell ? Where is that in scripture ?, you won't find it in them.
to you first, God, having raised up His child Jesus, did send him, blessing you, in the turning away of each one from your evil ways.' Acts 3:26
I came that you might have life and life more abundantly. All that I haveis yours
The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. (In you and me)
If trusting god to you is saving your skin fom hell, can I introduce you to the man Christ Jesus whom I implicitly trust in,because he said you believe in God( his existence), believe also in me, which the scripture also testifies that HE is the word of God, that HE is your Savior from everything in your life you have failed to save yourself from. Savior ? From hell ? Where is that in scripture ?, you won't find it in them.
to you first, God, having raised up His child Jesus, did send him, blessing you, in the turning away of each one from your evil ways.' Acts 3:26
I came that you might have life and life more abundantly. All that I haveis yours
The one who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work. (In you and me)
I understand you want to make this a punishment issue and make people who believe contrary to you make God an evil monster - because it contrasts the "God" you have made for yourself.
I have never stated God saves people from hell. I have quoted Romans 5:9 where it says we are saved from His wrath. I have quoted 2 Thessalonians 1:9 where it says God will send some to eternal destruction away from God's glory. To me, it seems pretty clear.
But if I am wrong - no problem - I will worship Him regardless - let God be true and all men liars. That is not the case for you. Your love for God is conditional, based on your preferences - and you seem OK with it.
I understand you want to make this a punishment issue and make people who believe contrary to you make God an evil monster - because it contrasts the "God" you have made for yourself.
I have never stated God saves people from hell. I have quoted Romans 5:9 where it says we are saved from His wrath. I have quoted 2 Thessalonians 1:9 where it says God will send some to eternal destruction away from God's glory. To me, it seems pretty clear.
But if I am wrong - no problem - I will worship Him regardless - let God be true and all men liars. That is not the case for you. Your love for God is conditional, based on your preferences - and you seem OK with it.
And you seem OK with the fact that you would be willing to worship a god worse than the worst of mankind. More than okay with it, you take pride in it. You are proud that you would give blind allegiance to a being which is evil, simply because you believe that that evil being is the one in authority. You are unwilling to stand up for that which is good and right and somehow believe that makes you morally superior?
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