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Your claim that nowhere does the Bible say that it is the Word of God is false. Furthermore, the Old Testament is part of the Bible and so to claim that the Bible was not in existence at the time of Christ is also false.
It did not exist. There is no question about it. The Bible was first canonized over 300 years after Christ's death, period. The OT is the Torah and belongs to Judaism. Several religious writings including the Torah were compiled and "Christianized" from the many that existed to create what you call the Bible.
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That which is written in the Book of Revelation (New Testament) is specifically stated by John to have been given by God the Father to Jesus Christ who communicated it to him who testified to it.
Revelation 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John, 2] who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.
I have no objection to the words of Christ being the words of God . . . of course they are. But Revelation is so enigmatic and incomprehensible that to try to pronounce doctrine out of interpretations of it is not just difficult . . . it is dangerous.
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All Scripture is said to be inspired by God.
2Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;
The word translated as inspired is theopneustos and literally means God-breathed. All scripture is breathed out by God.
Peter compared the letters of Paul with the Old Testament Scriptures.
2 Peter 3:15 and regard the patience of our Lord as salvation; just as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given him, wrote to you, 16] as also in all his letters, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which the untaught and unstable distort, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction.
Much as you would like to believe that this says scripture is God's word, infallible and inerrant . . . it does NOT. Inspiration from God however received (breathed or not) MUST be interpreted into words by the receivers . . . who were primitive and ignorant savages filled with fear and false beliefs about a jealous, angry and vengeful God who needed to be appeased by blood sacrifices, period. The scriptures are USEFUL (profitable) . . . which is a far cry from Inerrant or infallible or literally God's words.
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And no, Old Testament Scripture was NOT interpreted by ignorant primitives using their ancient superstitions and savage belief about a jealous, angry, vengeful God who needs to be appeased by blood sacrifice.
2 Peter 1:20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21] for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but holy men of God spoke as they were carried along (pheromenoi) by the Holy Spirit.
The Bible, the Word of God refutes your false statements.
The Bible, the Word of Men inspired by God does no such thing. "Carried along" or "inspired" or "breathed" . . . the fact is they had to interpret and record it in THEIR words using THEIR understanding, period.
"Carried along" or "inspired" or "breathed" . . . the fact is they had to interpret and record it in THEIR words using THEIR understanding, period.
Sort of like what you do just because you don't believe the bible is the word of God. Of course you will attack the gospel if it goes against your belief.
Sort of like what you do just because you don't believe the bible is the word of God. Of course you will attack the gospel if it goes against your belief.
OK stop lying. I understand you are indoctrinated into your rote understanding . . . but it does not give you the right to accuse me of attacking the Gospel of Christ when I am promoting it. When you make light of the need to DO what Christ commanded of His disciples . . ."love God and each other" daily and repent when you don't . . . I see that as an attack on Christ's commands but I do not accuse. Accusing the brethren is a sign of the adversary.
OK stop lying. I understand you are indoctrinated into your rote understanding . . . but it does not give you the right to accuse me of attacking the Gospel of Christ when I am promoting it. When you make light of the need to DO what Christ commanded of His disciples . . ."love God and each other" daily and repent when you don't . . . I see that as an attack on Christ's commands but I do not accuse. Accusing the brethren is a sign of the adversary.
Lying about what? The bible makes it clear that anyone who is not preaching the grace of God through the finished work of Christ is preaching another gospel. You are the one who says most of the authors of the books in the bible are savages and heretics. You say we are not redeemed but must attain redemption through continuous repentance. You say Christ did not die for the sins of the world. I believe what the bible says. I believe in redemption. You believe in being your own redeemer which is an insult to the grace of God that He poured out onto this world through His Son and His sacrifice on the cross. You say accusing the brethren is a sign of the adversary. Well let me just say you my friend are not my brother in Christ if you do not believe in the blood bought salvation Jesus gave us.
It did not exist. There is no question about it. The Bible was first canonized over 300 years after Christ's death, period. The OT is the Torah and belongs to Judaism. Several religious writings including the Torah were compiled and "Christianized" from the many that existed to create what you call the Bible.
So now you are claiming that the Old Testament is not part of the Bible? The Old Testament is not just the Torah. The Torah is the first five books of the Old Testament. In addition to the Torah, the Prophets and the writings make up the Old Testament. All of which are part of the Bible. The Old Testament was closed before Jesus incarnated.
Jesus Himself noted the limits of the Old Testament or Hebrew Bible. In Luke 11:51 Jesus said...
from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the house of God; yes, I tell you, it shall be charged against this generation.
In the arrangement of the Hebrew Old Testament Canon as Jesus had them, Chronicles was the last book. Regarding this, F. F. Bruce writes...
There is evidence that Chronicles was the last book in the Hebrew Bible as Jesus knew it. When he said that the generation he addressed would be answerable for 'the blood of all the prophets, shed from the foundation of the world', he added, 'from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who perished between the altar and the sanctuary' (Luke 11:50f.). Abel is the first martyr in the Bible (Gen. 4:8); Zechariah is most probably the son of Jehoiada, who was stoned to death 'in the court of Yahweh's house' because, speaking by the Spirit of God, he rebuked the king and people of Judah for transgressing the divine commandments (2 Chron. 24:20-22). Zechariah (c 800 BC.) was not chronologically the last faithful prophet to die as a martyr; some two centuries later a prophet named Uriah was put to death in Jerusalem because his witness was unacceptable to King Jeoiakim (Jer. 26:20-23). But Zechariah is canonically the last faithful prophet to die as a martyr, because his death is recorded in Chronicles, the last book in the Hebrew Bible. [The Canon of Scripture, F. F. Bruce, p. 31].
Then there is the testimony of Josephus who wrote...
For we have not an innumerable multitude of books among us, disagreeing from and contradicting one another [as the Greeks have,] but only twenty-two books, which contain the records of all the past times; which are justly believed to be divine, and of them, five belong to Moses, which contain his laws and the traditions of the origin of mankind till his death. This interval of time was little short of three thousand years; but as to the time from the death of Moses till the the reign of Artaxerxes king of Persia, who reigned after Xerxes, the prophets, who were after Moses, wrote down what was done in their times in thirteen books. The remaining four books contain hymns to God, and precepts for the conduct of human life. It is true, our history hath been written since Artaxerxes, very particularly, but hath not been esteemed of the like authority with the former by our forefathers, because there hath not been an exact succession of prophets since that time; [Against Apion, Book 1, section 8. Flavius Josephus]
Artaxerxes was king of the Persian Empire from 465 BC to 424 BC. The Old Testament was closed as of that time. Josephus' reference to 22 books rather than the 24 books of the Hebrew canon by traditional Jewish reckoning probably is because of grouping Ruth with Judges and Lamentations with Jeremiah according to F. F. Bruce in 'The Canon of Scripture' p. 33.
The New Testament was complete as of 95 or 96 A.D with the completion of the Book of Revelation. The Books of the New Testament simply had not yet been completely circulated and brought together under one cover until later. One of the most important criteria for canonicity was Apostolic authority, meaning that the books which belong in the New Testament had to have been written by an apostle or by someone closely associated with an apostle. This eliminates any book written after the time of the apostles. The church could not bestow canonicity on any New Testament book, but could only recogize what was already had divine authority.
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I have no objection to the words of Christ being the words of God . . . of course they are. But Revelation is so enigmatic and incomprehensible that to try to pronounce doctrine out of interpretations of it is not just difficult . . . it is dangerous.
How many times do you need to be told that the Book of Revelation is not difficult to understand. You simply need to first understand the Old Testament.
And now you are admitting that the Book of Revelation is the Word of God, whereas before you claimed that nowhere did the Bible say that it was.
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Much as you would like to believe that this says scripture is God's word, infallible and inerrant . . . it does NOT. Inspiration from God however received (breathed or not) MUST be interpreted into words by the receivers . . . who were primitive and ignorant savages filled with fear and false beliefs about a jealous, angry and vengeful God who needed to be appeased by blood sacrifices, period. The scriptures are USEFUL (profitable) . . . which is a far cry from Inerrant or infallible or literally God's words.
The Bible, the Word of Men inspired by God does no such thing. "Carried along" or "inspired" or "breathed" . . . the fact is they had to interpret and record it in THEIR words using THEIR understanding, period.
The only ignorance is YOURS!!! How impotent you believe God to be that He couldn't accurately communicate and have accurately set in writing that which He communicated? Do you actually think that God was not capable of so superintending the communication of His word that His message to man was recorded just as He intended it to be? And the infallibility of the Bible refers to the original autographs.
You judge the Bible by what you approve of and disapprove of. The arrogance of it.
The animal sacifices were instituted by God. The animal sacrifices where a shadow Christology. An illustration of the work of Christ on the Cross. It was necessary for Jesus to go to the Cross and pay the penalty for our sins. You can deny that as much as you want. It does not change the truth which you reject.
So you think that the Old Testament paints God as a blood thirsty God. When Jesus stated in Matthew 9:13, ''But go and learn what this means: 'I DESIRE COMPASSION , AND NOT SACRIFICE,... He was quoting Hosea 6:6. That's Old Testament.
And while you are looking up Hosea 6:6 look also at 1 Sam. 15:22, Isa. 1:11-20, Amos 5:21-24, Micah 6:6-8, Psalm 50:8-9, and Psalm 51:16.
But it was necessary for God to sacrifice His Son on the Cross to satisfy the demands of His righteousness so that anyone who believes on Jesus could have eternal life. And this is something you cannot seem to understand.
Last edited by Michael Way; 07-02-2013 at 07:20 PM..
It did not exist. There is no question about it. The Bible was first canonized over 300 years after Christ's death, period. The OT is the Torah and belongs to Judaism. Several religious writings including the Torah were compiled and "Christianized" from the many that existed to create what you call the Bible. I have no objection to the words of Christ being the words of God . . . of course they are. But Revelation is so enigmatic and incomprehensible that to try to pronounce doctrine out of interpretations of it is not just difficult . . . it is dangerous.
Much as you would like to believe that this says scripture is God's word, infallible and inerrant . . . it does NOT. Inspiration from God however received (breathed or not) MUST be interpreted into words by the receivers . . . who were primitive and ignorant savages filled with fear and false beliefs about a jealous, angry and vengeful God who needed to be appeased by blood sacrifices, period. The scriptures are USEFUL (profitable) . . . which is a far cry from Inerrant or infallible or literally God's words.
The Bible, the Word of Men inspired by God does no such thing. "Carried along" or "inspired" or "breathed" . . . the fact is they had to interpret and record it in THEIR words using THEIR understanding, period.
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Originally Posted by romans519
Lying about what? The bible makes it clear that anyone who is not preaching the grace of God through the finished work of Christ is preaching another gospel.
That IS what I witness to. Christ's grace has done what was needed for our salvation. We have nothing to do with our salvation, period. YOU are the one who says we are NOT saved by Christ until WE DO what YOU say we need to do. That is NOT the Gospel.
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You are the one who says most of the authors of the books in the bible are savages and heretics.
You call them heretics . . . I just called them ignorant savages.
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You say we are not redeemed but must attain redemption through continuous repentance. You say Christ did not die for the sins of the world. I believe what the bible says. I believe in redemption.
Another lie. See above. YOU believe we are not redeemed and must DO what you say to be redeemed . . . NOT me.
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You believe in being your own redeemer which is an insult to the grace of God that He poured out onto this world through His Son and His sacrifice on the cross.
Wrong. I have nothing to do with my redemption. I accept that Christ's grace accomplished what was needed. YOU say it did not and WE must DO what YOU say to be redeemed. So who is insulting His grace?
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You say accusing the brethren is a sign of the adversary. Well let me just say you my friend are not my brother in Christ if you do not believe in the blood bought salvation Jesus gave us.
Sad to hear you say that . . . but I consider you my brother in Christ . . . because we all are. God is no respecter of persons and neither is Christ His Son.
That IS what I witness to. Christ's grace has done what was needed for our salvation. We have nothing to do with our salvation, period. YOU are the one who says we are NOT saved by Christ until WE DO what YOU say we need to do. That is NOT the Gospel. You call them heretics . . . I just called them ignorant savages. Another lie. See above. YOU believe we are not redeemed and must DO what you say to be redeemed . . . NOT me. Wrong. I have nothing to do with my redemption. I accept that Christ's grace accomplished what was needed. YOU say it did not and WE must DO what YOU say to be redeemed. So who is insulting His grace? Sad to hear you say that . . . but I consider you my brother in Christ . . . because we all are. God is no respecter of persons and neither is Christ His Son.
You say I am insulting the grace of Christ because I don't believe in your view of the bible which you believe is not redemption. Also, quote me anywhere I have said Jesus' sacrifice (which is His grace for us) did not redeem us. Also quote me where I have called any author of the bible a heretic. I believe the entire bible is the word of God. You say I insult His grace because I don't believe in your view on scripture. My belief is backed by the entire bible. Your belief is cherry picked and ripped out of context. The bible makes it clear that the will of God is to believe in His Son's sacrifice for our redemption.
That IS what I witness to. Christ's grace has done what was needed for our salvation. We have nothing to do with our salvation, period. YOU are the one who says we are NOT saved by Christ until WE DO what YOU say we need to do. That is NOT the Gospel. You call them heretics . . . I just called them ignorant savages. Another lie. See above. YOU believe we are not redeemed and must DO what you say to be redeemed . . . NOT me. Wrong. I have nothing to do with my redemption. I accept that Christ's grace accomplished what was needed. YOU say it did not and WE must DO what YOU say to be redeemed. So who is insulting His grace? Sad to hear you say that . . . but I consider you my brother in Christ . . . because we all are. God is no respecter of persons and neither is Christ His Son.
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Originally Posted by romans519
You say I am insulting the grace of Christ because I don't believe in your view of the bible
Cite the post where I ever said any such thing . . . or take it back. Read my post again. It is YOUR view of the Gospel that YOU apparently don't believe in . . . you know the part that says Christ's grace has saved us . . . NOT what WE do.
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Also, quote me anywhere I have said Jesus' sacrifice (which is His grace for us) did not redeem us.
See the bold above. You believe WE must do what you say we must do to be redeemed. That means you reject the idea that Christ did it . . . and think it is up to us.
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Also quote me where I have called any author of the bible a heretic.
You are the one who accused me of calling them heretics. I just corrected you.
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I believe the entire bible is the word of God. You say I insult His grace because I don't believe in your view on scripture.
I know you do because that is what you have been taught. But either quote my post that says "You say I insult His grace because I don't believe in your view on scripture." or stop saying it.
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My belief is backed by the entire bible.
So is mine.
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Your belief is cherry picked and ripped out of context.
Not true. It uses the context the Christ provided by revealing the True Nature of our God. You are using the context provided by our ignorant ancestors. I trust Christ.
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The bible makes it clear that the will of God is to believe in His Son's sacrifice for our redemption.
I agree we are to believe INTO (pisteuo eis) His Son (look that up, it is not what you think it means) that His grace is sufficient for our salvation . . . apparently YOU do not since you think WE have to DO something to be saved.
Cite the post where I ever said any such thing . . . or take it back. Read my post again. It is YOUR view of the Gospel that YOU apparently don't believe in . . . you know the part that says Christ's grace has saved us . . . NOT what WE do. See the bold above. You believe WE must do what you say we must do to be redeemed. That means you reject the idea that Christ did it . . . and think it is up to us. You are the one who accused me of calling them heretics. I just corrected you. I know you do because that is what you have been taught. But either quote my post that says "You say I insult His grace because I don't believe in your view on scripture." or stop saying it. So is mine. Not true. It uses the context the Christ provided by revealing the True Nature of our God. You are using the context provided by our ignorant ancestors. I trust Christ. I agree we are to believe INTO (pisteuo eis) His Son (look that up, it is not what you think it means) that His grace is sufficient for our salvation . . . apparently YOU do not since you think WE have to DO something to be saved.
Now you're accusing me of advocating works based salvation? You see it that way because you are stuck on this idea that its "my way or no way" when I am in no way making that claim. I am simply saying what the bible says and I have backed it by scripture. Jesus paid the price for our sins. How can you say I don't believe in my own view of the bible? That is just ridiculous. You say quote where you have said, "You say I insult His grace because I don't believe in your view on scripture"... my friend the quote is in the implication of every reply to my posts. But look at your replies to mine and tell me you're not rebuking me because you don't believe in my view of scripture. Jesus came to this Earth to die for our sins. Jesus Himself said He has come to give Himself a RANSOM for many. That is justice towards sin, paying the price for sin, paying the debt we owed to God that His justice and righteousness demanded of us. Jesus paid it all and you rebuke me because you don't believe that. How can you believe otherwise when Jesus Himself said He came to give Himself a ransom for many?
You believe WE must do what you say we must do to be redeemed. That means you reject the idea that Christ did it . . . and think it is up to us.
Where on Earth are you getting the idea that you are contradicting or rebuking me in any way with these words? How can you say I reject the idea that Christ saved us? Where are you coming from with these statements? I reject YOUR twisted gospel.
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