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Old 07-13-2013, 10:47 AM
 
Location: kS.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert M Prince View Post
Jesus' own words: John 14:[15] If ye love me, keep my commandments.
[21] He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

See also 1 John 2:[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

True believers will love Jesus and keep His commandments. We cannot do this unless we are filled with His Holy Spirit. We cannot boast of any of our works, since if we have that Spirit, it is the Holy Spirit that is doing those righteous works in and through us.
Amen!
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Old 07-13-2013, 11:46 AM
 
794 posts, read 841,894 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert M Prince View Post
Jesus' own words: John 14:[15] If ye love me, keep my commandments.
[21] He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

See also 1 John 2:[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

True believers will love Jesus and keep His commandments. We cannot do this unless we are filled with His Holy Spirit. We cannot boast of any of our works, since if we have that Spirit, it is the Holy Spirit that is doing those righteous works in and through us.
There are a lot of people in the world who know Jesus, but they don't believe in Him for salvation. It is all about being born again. Until you are born again by believing in the finished work of Christ then the verses you quoted can't even happen for that person. You're not acknowledging that believers fall into sin from temptation, peer pressure, depression, sickness, family problems and a multitude of other reasons. How can someone going through that do what Jesus said to do? And also what is the measure to keep them? Jesus never gave a measure to live up to so therefore any amount of obedience on our part is negated when it comes to salvation. There is no such thing as a person who has been born again and then becomes unborn again... IMPOSSIBLE! Being born again seals our salvation forever because Jesus is our salvation. He saved us by HIS obedience not ours. (Romans 5:19) How many believers in this world today go to church, try to do right, always are nice, caring, giving and look like the overall model citizen yet all too often to people like this bad things happen? Your obedience will not save you from the curse of the world. Resting in the obedience of Christ will. When you do that, all of what Jesus commanded us will manifest. The bible says law arouses sin. Therefore we cannot trust in our own obedience to manifest holiness in our lives. You keep saying its the Holy Spirit doing the works yet you still sprinkle man's obedience in it because you cannot come to the full truth that our obedience is dead and Jesus' obedience lives.
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Old 07-13-2013, 12:26 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 10,832,457 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romans519 View Post
There are a lot of people in the world who know Jesus, but they don't believe in Him for salvation. It is all about being born again. Until you are born again by believing in the finished work of Christ then the verses you quoted can't even happen for that person. You're not acknowledging that believers fall into sin from temptation, peer pressure, depression, sickness, family problems and a multitude of other reasons. How can someone going through that do what Jesus said to do? And also what is the measure to keep them? Jesus never gave a measure to live up to so therefore any amount of obedience on our part is negated when it comes to salvation. There is no such thing as a person who has been born again and then becomes unborn again... IMPOSSIBLE! Being born again seals our salvation forever because Jesus is our salvation. He saved us by HIS obedience not ours. (Romans 5:19) How many believers in this world today go to church, try to do right, always are nice, caring, giving and look like the overall model citizen yet all too often to people like this bad things happen? Your obedience will not save you from the curse of the world. Resting in the obedience of Christ will. When you do that, all of what Jesus commanded us will manifest. The bible says law arouses sin. Therefore we cannot trust in our own obedience to manifest holiness in our lives. You keep saying its the Holy Spirit doing the works yet you still sprinkle man's obedience in it because you cannot come to the full truth that our obedience is dead and Jesus' obedience lives.
Doesn't sound to me like people who think this way would "spur one another to good works," does it?
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Old 07-14-2013, 11:52 AM
 
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Default 1Corinthians 10:16 The Cup of Blessing and the Eucharist

1Corinthians 10:16 The Cup of Blessing and the Eucharist

In “The New Testament and Rabbinic Judaism,” Daube explains the term “cup of blessing” in 1Corinthians 10:16. I’ll quote from page 330 in the section titled “the Omission of the Fourth Cup” –
Of the four cups of wine prescribed for the Passover-eve service, the third, over which grace is said, is to be taken immediately after the supper (Mish. Pes. 10.7) In technical language it appears as ‘the cup of blessing’, kos shel berakha, kasa’ debhirketha’ (Bab. Ber. 51a). According to the synoptics and Paul, this third cup is the cup of the New Covenant. Paul actually adopts its technical designation.
There is, however, in Matthew and Mark a reference also to the fourth and last cup of the Passover liturgy. It is contained in the words; ‘I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine until I drink it new in my father’s kingdom’ or ‘in the kingdom of God’. The meaning is that the fourth cup will not be taken, as would be the normal thing, at a subsequent stage of this service; it will be postponed till the kingdom is fully established.

Below is more information related to the cup of blessing and the Eucharist [cross references based on the Comprehensive New Testament]:

TALMUD

The Talmud appears to have direct parallels between
Mark 14:25/Mishnah Pesahim 10.7B
Mark 14:34-37/Psalms 116:3-4/Mishnah Pesahim 10.7E
Psalms 116:3-4 is extremely similar to Mark 14:34, 37. It is interesting that the Mishnah Pesahim 10.7 gives an underlying basis for the similarity as Psalms 116:4 being part of the Hallel said at the fourth cup at Passover and Mark 14:34, 37 describes Jesus’ actions during Passover after the third cup and before the fourth cup. It is even more amazing that Mishnah Pesahim 10.7E indicates that part of the Hallel at Passover concerns the anguish of the Messiah. Psalms 116:13 which is part of the Passover Hallel parallels the Eucharist – “I will lift up the cup of salvation and call on the name of the Lord.” Below are the Talmudic quotes:
A. THEY MIXED THE THIRD CUP FOR HIM. HE SAYS A BLESSING FOR HIS FOOD.
1. I:1: Said R. Hanan to Raba, “That yields the inference that recitation of the
Grace after Meals requires a cup of wine.”
B. AND AT THE FOURTH CUP, HE COMPLETES THE HALLEL PSALMS AND AFTER IT HE SAYS THE GRACE OF SONG. BETWEEN THESE SEVERAL CUPS OF WINE, IF HE WANTS TO DRINK MORE WINE, HE MAY DO SO. BUT BETWEEN THE THIRD AND THE FOURTH CUP OF WINE, HE MAY NOT DRINK MORE WINE.
1. II:1: What is the meaning of the grace of song?
2. II:2: Our rabbis have taught on Tannaite authority: “At the fourth cup one
concludes the Hallel Psalms and recites the great Hallel,” the words of R. Tarfon.
And there are those who say, “‘The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want’
(Psa. 23: 1).”
C. TOPICAL COMPOSITE ON THE GREAT HALLEL
1. II:3: What comprises the great Hallel?
E. REVERSION TO THE EXPOSITION OF THE GREAT HALLEL
1. II:12: Now that there is the great Hallel, how come we recite this one Psa. 113-
118? It is because it contains these five references: the exodus from Egypt,
dividing the Reed Sea, giving of the Torah, resurrection of the dead, and the
anguish of the Messiah.
a. II:13: And said R. Yohanan, “‘The phrase, ‘not to us, Lord, not to us’
refers to the subjugation to the kingdoms.”
2. II:14: Continuation of II:12. R. Nahman bar Isaac said, “It is because it alludes to the deliverance of the souls of the righteous from Gehenna: ‘I beseech you, Lord, deliver my soul’ (Psa. 116:4).”
[Mishnah Pesahim 10.7 (quote is from Neusner’s Babylonian Talmud]
R. Zera said in the name of R. Abbahu according to others, it was taught in a Baraitha: Ten things have been said in connection with the cup used for grace after meals. It requires to be rinsed and washed, it must be undiluted and full, it requires crowning and wrapping, it must be taken up with both hands and placed in the right hand, it must be raised a handbreadth from the ground, and he who says the blessing must fix his eyes on it. Some add that he must send it round to the members of his household. R. Johanan said: We only know of four: rinsing, washing, undiluted and full. A Tanna taught: Rinsing refers to the inside, washing to the outside. R. Johanan said: Whoever says the blessing over a full cup is given an inheritance without bounds, as it says, And full with the blessing of the Lord; possess thou the sea and the south. R. Jose son of R. Hanina says: He is privileged to inherit two worlds, this world and the next.
[Babylonian Berakhot 51a-(quote is from the Soncino Talmud)]

PHILO

There are several passages in Philo (Yonge – public domain) that are also interesting concerning the Eucharist including part of a quote from Euripedes -
And who can pour over the happy soul which proffers its own reason as the most sacred cup, the holy goblets of true joy, except the cup-bearer of God, the master of the feast, the word? not differing from the draught itself, but being itself in an unmixed state, the pure delight and sweetness, and pouring forth, and joy, and ambrosial medicine of pleasure and happiness; if we too may, for a moment, employ the language of the poets. Philo[On Dreams, That They Are God-Sent (2.249)]
On which account he will neither obey every one who imposes a command upon him, not even if he threatens him with insults, and tortures, and even still more formidable evils; but he will bear a gallant spirit, and will cry out in reply to such menaces--
"Yes, burn and scorch my flesh, and glut your hate,
Drinking my life-warm blood; for heaven's stars
Shall quit their place, and darken 'neath the earth,
And earth rise up and take the place of heaven,
Before you wring from me a word of Flattery."{4}{this is a fragment of Euripides from the Syleus. Fr. 2.} Philo[Every Good Man is Free (25)]
I would rather choose to die than to speak merely with the object of gratifying the ear, and to conceal the truth, disregarding all thought of what is really advantageous. "Now then," as the tragedian says: "Now then let fire, let biting steel come on; Burn, scorch my flesh, and glut your appetite, Drinking my dark, warm blood; for here I swear, Sooner shall those bright stars which deck the heaven Descend beneath the earth, the earth itself Soar upwards to the sky, than servile words Of flattery creep from out my mouth to thee." But the people, when it is the master, cannot endure a statesman of so masculine a spirit, and one who keeps so completely aloof from the passions, from pleasure, from fear, from grief, from desire; but it arrests its well-wisher and friend and punishes him as an enemy, in doing which it first of all inflicts upon itself the most grievous of all punishments, namely, ignorance; in consequence of which state it does not itself learn that lesson which is the most beautiful and profitable of all, namely, obedience to its governor, from which the knowledge how to govern subsequently springs. Philo[On Joseph 77-79]

NAG HAMMADI

The gospel of Philip 75 has the following:
…Nothing will be able to receive imperishability if it does not first become a son. But he who has not the ability to receive, how much more will he be unable to give? The cup of prayer contains wine and water, since it is appointed as the type of the blood for which thanks is given. And it is full of the holy spirit, and it belongs to the wholly perfect man. When we drink this, we shall receive for ourselves the perfect man.

NEW TESTAMENT APOCHRYPHA

they shall be arrayed in royal raiment, and shall put on shining robes; and in joy and exultation both of them shall be, and they shall glorify the Father of the universe, whose majestic light they have received, and they have been enlightened by the sight of Him their Lord, whose ambrosial food they have received, of which there is no failing at all; and they have drunk also of the wine which brings to them no thirst, neither desire of the flesh; and they have with the living spirit glorified and praised the father of truth and the mother of wisdom. [Acts of Thomas 1.121]

PSEUDEPIGRAPHA

And Joseph and his brothers eat bread before their father and drank wine, and Jacob rejoiced with exceeding great joy because he saw Joseph eating with his brothers and drinking before him, and he blessed the Creator of all things who had preserved him, and had preserved for him his twelve sons.[Jubilees 45.5

IRENAEUS

4…But how can they be consistent with themselves, [when they say] that the bread over which thanks have been given is the body of their Lord, and the cup His blood, if they do not call Himself the Son of the Creator of the world, that is, His Word, through whom the wood fructifies, and the fountains gush forth, and the earth gives “first the blade, then the ear, then the full corn in the ear.” 5. Then, again, how can they say that the flesh, which is nourished with the body of the Lord and with His blood, goes to corruption, and does not partake of life? Let them, therefore, either alter their opinion, or cease from offering the things just mentioned. But our opinion is in accordance with the Eucharist, and the Eucharist in turn establishes our opinion. For we offer to Him His own, announcing consistently the fellowship and union of the flesh and Spirit. For as the bread, which is produced from the earth, when it receives the invocation of God, is no longer common bread, but the Eucharist, consisting of two realities, earthly and heavenly; so also our bodies, when they receive the Eucharist, are no longer corruptible, having the hope of the resurrection to eternity. [Against Heresies Book IV. 18.4-5]
3. Vain also are the Ebionites, who do not receive by faith into their soul the union of God and man, but who remain in the old leaven of [the natural] birth, and who do not choose to understand that the Holy Ghost came upon Mary, and the power of the Most High did overshadow her: wherefore also what was generated is a holy thing, and the Son of the Most High God the Father of all, who effected the incarnation of this being, and showed forth a new [kind of] generation; that as by the former generation we inherited death, so by this new generation we might inherit life. Therefore do these men reject the commixture of the heavenly wine, and wish it to be water of the world only, not receiving God so as to have union with Him, but they remain in that Adam who had been conquered and was expelled from Paradise: not considering that as, at the beginning of our formation in Adam, that breath of life which proceeded from God, having been united to what had been fashioned, animated the man, and manifested him as a being endowed with reason; so also, in [the times of] the end, the Word of the Father and the Spirit of God, having become united with the ancient substance of Adam’s formation, rendered man living and perfect, receptive of the perfect Father, in order that as in the natural [Adam] we all were dead, so in the spiritual we may all be made alive. For never at any time did Adam escape the hands of God, to whom the Father speaking, said, “Let Us make man in Our image, after Our likeness.” And for this reason in the last times (fine), not by the will of the flesh, nor by the will of man, but by the good pleasure of the Father, His hands formed a living man, in order that Adam might be created [again] after the image and likeness of God. [Against Heresies Book V.1.3]
2. But vain in every respect are they who despise the entire dispensation of God, and disallow the salvation of the flesh, and treat with contempt its regeneration, maintaining that it is not capable of incorruption. But if this indeed do not attain salvation, then neither did the Lord redeem us with His blood, nor is the cup of the Eucharist the communion of His blood, nor the bread which we break the communion of His body. For blood can only come from veins and flesh, and whatsoever else makes up the substance of man, such as the Word of God was actually made. By His own blood he redeemed us, as also His apostle declares, “In whom we have redemption through His blood, even the remission of sins.” And as we are His members, we are also nourished by means of the creation (and He Himself grants the creation to us, for He causes His sun to rise, and sends rain when He wills). He has acknowledged the cup (which is a part of the creation) as His own blood, from which He bedews our blood; and the bread (also a part of the creation) He has established as His own body, from which He gives increase to our bodies.
3. When, therefore, the mingled cup and the manufactured bread receives the Word of God, and the Eucharist of the blood and the body of Christ is made, from which things the substance of our flesh is increased and supported, how can they affirm that the flesh is incapable of receiving the gift of God, which is life eternal, which [flesh] is nourished from the body and blood of the Lord, and is a member of Him?—even as the blessed Paul declares in his Epistle to the Ephesians, that “we are members of His body, of His flesh, and of His bones.” He does not speak these words of some spiritual and invisible man, for a spirit has not bones nor flesh; but [he refers to] that dispensation [by which the Lord became] an actual man, consisting of flesh, and nerves, and bones,—that [flesh] which is nourished by the cup which is His blood, and receives increase from the bread which is His body. And just as a cutting from the vine planted in the ground fructifies in its season, or as a corn of wheat falling into the earth and becoming decomposed, rises with manifold increase by the Spirit of God, who contains all things, and then, through the wisdom of God, serves for the use of men, and having received the Word of God, becomes the Eucharist, which is the body and blood of Christ; so also our bodies, being nourished by it, and deposited in the earth, and suffering decomposition there, shall rise at their appointed time, the Word of God granting them resurrection to the glory of God, even the Father, who freely gives to this mortal immortality, and to this corruptible incorruption, because the strength of God is made perfect in weakness, in order that we may never become puffed up, as if we had life from ourselves, and exalted against God, our minds becoming ungrateful; but learning by experience that we possess eternal duration from the excelling power of this Being, not from our own nature, we may neither undervalue that glory which surrounds God as He is, nor be ignorant of our own nature, but that we may know what God can effect, and what benefits man receives, and thus never wander from the true comprehension of things as they are, that is, both with regard to God and with regard to man. And might it not be the case, perhaps, as I have already observed, that for this purpose God permitted our resolution into the common dust of mortality, that we, being instructed by every mode, may be accurate in all things for the future, being ignorant neither of God nor of ourselves? [Against Heresies Book V.2.2-3]
Now those oblations are not according to the law, the handwriting of which the Lord took away from the midst by cancelling it; but they are according to the Spirit, for we must worship God “in spirit and in truth.”And therefore the oblation of the Eucharist is not a carnal one, but a spiritual; and in this respect it is pure. For we make an oblation to God of the bread and the cup of blessing, giving Him thanks in that He has commanded the earth to bring forth these fruits for our nourishment. And then, when we have perfected the oblation, we invoke the Holy Spirit, that He may exhibit this sacrifice, both the bread the body of Christ, and the cup the blood of Christ, in order that the receivers of these antitypes. may obtain remission of sins and life eternal. Those persons, then, who perform these oblations in remembrance of the Lord, do not fall in with Jewish views, but, performing the service after a spiritual manner, they shall be called sons of wisdom. [Fragments from the Lost Works 37]

JUSTIN MARTYR

“And the offering of fine flour, sirs,” I said, “which was prescribed to be presented on behalf of those purified from leprosy, was a type of the bread of the Eucharist, the celebration of which our Lord Jesus Christ prescribed, in remembrance of the suffering which He endured on behalf of those who are purified in soul from all iniquity, in order that we may at the same time thank God for having created the world, with all things therein, for the sake of man, and for delivering us from the evil in which we were, and for utterly overthrowing principalities and powers by Him who suffered according to His will. [Dialogue with Trypho 41]
“Accordingly, God, anticipating all the sacrifices which we offer through this name, and which Jesus the Christ enjoined us to offer, i.e., in the Eucharist of the bread and the cup, and which are presented by Christians in all places throughout the world, bears witness that they are well-pleasing to Him. But He utterly rejects those presented by you and by those priests of yours, saying, ‘And I will not accept your sacrifices at your hands; for from the rising of the sun to its setting my name is glorified among the Gentiles (He says); but ye profane it.’ Yet even now, in your love of contention, you assert that God does not accept the sacrifices of those who dwelt then in Jerusalem, and were called Israelites; but says that He is pleased with the prayers of the individuals of that nation then dispersed, and calls their prayers sacrifices. Now, that prayers and giving of thanks, when offered by worthy men, are the only perfect and well-pleasing sacrifices to God, I also admit. For such alone Christians have undertaken to offer, and in the remembrance effected by their solid and liquid food, whereby the suffering of the Son of God which He endured is brought to mind…”[Dialogue with Trypho 117]
There is then brought to the president of the brethren bread and a cup of wine mixed with water; and he taking them, gives praise and glory to the Father of the universe, through the name of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, and offers thanks at considerable length for our being counted worthy to receive these things at His hands. And when he has concluded the prayers and thanksgivings, all the people present express their assent by saying Amen. This word Amen answers in the Hebrew language to γένοιτο [so be it]. And when the president has given thanks, and all the people have expressed their assent, those who are called by us deacons give to each of those present to partake of the bread and wine mixed with water over which the thanksgiving was pronounced, and to those who are absent they carry away a portion. [First Apology 65]
all who live in cities or in the country gather together to one place, and the memoirs of the apostles or the writings of the prophets are read, as long as time permits; then, when the reader has ceased, the president verbally instructs, and exhorts to the imitation of these good things. Then we all rise together and pray, and, as we before said, when our prayer is ended, bread and wine and water are brought, and the president in like manner offers prayers and thanksgivings, according to his ability, and the people assent, saying Amen; and there is a distribution to each, and a participation of that over which thanks have been given, and to those who are absent a portion is sent by the deacons. [First Apology 67]

CLEMENT OF ALEXANDRIA

There are not, then, in the same Word some “illuminated (gnostics); and some animal (or natural) men;” but all who have abandoned the desires of the flesh are equal and spiritual before the Lord. And again he writes in another place: “For by one spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free, and we have all drunk of one cup.” [The Instructor Book I.6]
Afterwards the sacred vine produced the prophetic cluster. This was a sign to them, when trained from wandering to their rest; representing the great cluster the Word, bruised for us. For the blood of the grape—that is, the Word—desired to be mixed with water, as His blood is mingled with salvation.
And the blood of the Lord is twofold. For there is the blood of His flesh, by which we are redeemed from corruption; and the spiritual, that by which we are anointed. And to drink the blood of Jesus, is to become partaker of the Lord’s immortality; the Spirit being the energetic principle of the Word, as blood is of flesh.
Accordingly, as wine is blended with water, so is the Spirit with man. And the one, the mixture of wine and water, nourishes to faith; while the other, the Spirit, conducts to immortality.
And the mixture of both—of the water and of the Word—is called Eucharist, renowned and glorious grace; and they who by faith partake of it are sanctified both in body and soul. For the divine mixture, man, the Father’s will has mystically compounded by the Spirit and the Word. For, in truth, the spirit is joined to the soul, which is inspired by it; and the flesh, by reason of which the Word became flesh, to the Word. [The Instructor Book II.2]

Last edited by Miss Blue; 07-16-2013 at 01:48 PM.. Reason: copy/paste from http://biblearchive.blogspot.com/2009/01/1corinthians-1016-18-cup-of-blessing.html
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Old 07-15-2013, 09:45 PM
 
794 posts, read 841,894 times
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Originally Posted by Azrael17 View Post
"Now all has been heard;
here is the conclusion of the matter:
Fear God and keep his commandments,
for this is the duty of all mankind." - Ecclesiastes 12:13

I do not worship a worthless demon who demanded a human sacrifice or required blood rituals.

I don't consider John to be an actually scripture because it is so littered with the ideals of men rather than God.

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. Therefore anyone who sets aside one of the least of these commands and teaches others accordingly will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. For I tell you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the Pharisees and the teachers of the law, you will certainly not enter the kingdom of heaven.


“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.â€

If you do not live a good morale life you will simply have a house built upon the sand.

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"

Not all Christians who believe in Christ are going to heaven.

“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."
If you try to live your life how you want instead of submitting to the will of God then you are on the broad way of destruction.
If you submit your will to God and live a Pious life then you are on the Narrow Way of life.
Would you call a just God who imputed your sins to another and the punishment to spare you from judgment a God of love or a worthless demon?

You also quoted where Jesus said He has come to fulfill the law. The law demands a sacrifice since no man can be justified by it. Where you fail at keeping the law, it says to provide a sacrifice or you pay the price for your failure. When Jesus said He has come to fulfill the law He literally meant He came to be the sacrifice to fulfill the law for us.
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Old 07-15-2013, 11:35 PM
 
Location: Arizona
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Originally Posted by romans519 View Post
Would you call a just God who imputed your sins to another and the punishment to spare you from judgment a God of love or a worthless demon?

You also quoted where Jesus said He has come to fulfill the law. The law demands a sacrifice since no man can be justified by it. Where you fail at keeping the law, it says to provide a sacrifice or you pay the price for your failure. When Jesus said He has come to fulfill the law He literally meant He came to be the sacrifice to fulfill the law for us.
He came to fulfill the love of the Father, not the Law of Sacrifice.
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Old 07-16-2013, 01:15 PM
 
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He came to fulfill the love of the Father, not the Law of Sacrifice.
This is not scriptural. This is nothing more than a doctrine birthed from perverting the gospel. Jesus said He came to fulfill GOD'S LAW. Obeying God's law does not fulfill it, it only shows your obedience to it. To fulfill it you must obey and sacrifice yourself otherwise you have only obeyed it and not fulfilled it.
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Old 07-16-2013, 01:23 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
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Originally Posted by romans519 View Post
This is not scriptural. This is nothing more than a doctrine birthed from perverting the gospel. Jesus said He came to fulfill GOD'S LAW. Obeying God's law does not fulfill it, it only shows your obedience to it. To fulfill it you must obey and sacrifice yourself otherwise you have only obeyed it and not fulfilled it.
I don't see that. How does that idea help understand "For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: 'Love your neighbor as yourself'"Gal 5:14?

Or should we use Gal 5:14 to understand what Jesus wass talking about?
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Old 07-16-2013, 02:03 PM
 
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I don't see that. How does that idea help understand "For the entire law is fulfilled in keeping this one command: 'Love your neighbor as yourself'"Gal 5:14?

Or should we use Gal 5:14 to understand what Jesus wass talking about?
That is 2 different meanings of the word fulfilled there. Galatians 5:14 is referring to manifestation of the other laws when that one is fulfilled (obeyed).
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Old 07-16-2013, 05:55 PM
 
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Originally Posted by romans519 View Post
That is 2 different meanings of the word fulfilled there. Galatians 5:14 is referring to manifestation of the other laws when that one is fulfilled (obeyed).
I don't see the difference in the situations; Jesus said He had not come to destroy the Law but He was making a New Covenant, which has the function of replacing as the writer of Hebrews so thoroughly explains, but in fact the New Covenant fulfills the intent of the Old by replacing it with a requirement for the heart to be devoted to that spirit, something that Law could not do.
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