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Old 04-30-2013, 06:32 PM
 
Location: Arizona
28,956 posts, read 16,277,508 times
Reputation: 2295

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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
quite right. They will be cast into the lake of fire which is the second death.
But here is why i believe that the bible teaches that everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.
Quite right!
Quote:
greek scholar william barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in matthew 25:46
"the greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."

see what other greek scholars say about it too.
an analytical study of words – louis abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/chapter11.html

fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) bibles that reveal what god will do with the sinners in matthew 25:46
concordant literal, young’s literal, wilson’s emphatic diaglott, rotherham’s emphasized, scarlett’s, j.w. Hanson’s new covenant, twentieth century, ferrar fenton, the western new testament, weymouth’s (unedited), clementson’s, the new testament of our lord and savior jesus anointed, the restoration of original sacred name bible, bullinger’s companion bible margins, jonathan mitchell’s translation (2010).


regarding the meaning of aionios
dean hough wrote “the definition given in the vocabulary of the greek testament (edited by james hope moulton and george milligan) is helpful. Concerning aionios we read, “in general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . .” (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by paul in 2 thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what paul says in 1 corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in christ.
the bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of god can keep him from achieving his will (1tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of christ’s cross (col.1:20, and becoming all in all (1 cor.15:28).”
dean hough
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Old 04-30-2013, 06:34 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,153 posts, read 3,397,651 times
Reputation: 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
And the Barclay's, Abbott's, Hough's of this world are going to be held responsible for their deception. They are Satan's puppets who are leading the unstable minded to their eternal destruction.
One of the great Christian Biblical Universal Salvationists of the last century was A.E. Knoch, author of the book ALL IN ALL.

My attitude towards the frequent threats by believers in eternal torment or annihilation is summed up beautifully by his response.

An eternal torment critic said "Mr. Knoch and his colleagues will yet have to answer to God for so defiantly opposing the plain teachings of God's holy word."

In reply A.E. Knoch wrote:

"Let me assure our brother, beloved by the Lord, that we fully expect to answer to God for all our acts, and will rejoice to see all that is not of God destroyed by the fiery test of that day. But such threats do not alarm us in the least. We know a God of transcendent grace. It is only natural for one who thinks Him capable of tormenting His own creatures eternally, to seek to follow His example, and torture His servants here and now. Indeed, it would be strange if it were not so.

The character of the God you worship will determine your ways and your words. We trust it will be so with us also, for we would delight to be like Him. Hence, we do not threaten you with His wrath, but commend you to His grace.

Perhaps no sin can be so great as to distort His words and defame His character. But His grace is superbly sufficient, His love is lavish in its long-suffering. It never lapses, but looks longingly for the reconciliation which is the justification and crown of all His ways with His creatures.

So, as we close with the absolute certainty of a reconciliation between us, we anticipate it on our part and throw all enmity aside. We are conciliated no matter what you do. We recall with joy and satisfaction the great truth that, by God's grace, it is impossible for you to enter into condemnation, no matter how much you may offend Him (Rom.8:1) and the still greater truth that we are saved for grace (Eph.2:8). While your words and ways have seemed to us to be offensively unlike His, this only gives greater ground for grace. This of itself justifies them, for grace must have a foil.

We close, then, with a prayer for such an outpouring of His grace on your own head as will force you to feel the affection which is found in Him for all the creatures of His hand and heart."
(End quote) A.E. Knoch
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Old 04-30-2013, 06:34 PM
 
Location: USA
17,156 posts, read 11,349,101 times
Reputation: 2376
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Just because someone refuses to believe the truth and rather follow Satan's Pied Piper doesn't mean this is any less truthful.
The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and
witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions a
envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like.

I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Be careful, Pleroo.

"A mind obsessed with only one thing is easily confused!
"
I am confused. I think I misunderstood Twin's point ... I thought he was saying that if someone didn't believe in eternal torment they automatically must be immoral. Or perhaps that the only way God could overcome our flesh is if we are afraid of going to hell.

But, no, I guess he's attempting to support his belief that some people are going to be eternally tormented. Of course, the passage he quoted doesn't say anything about eternal torment. And according to the passage no one who acts according to the flesh can inherit the kingdom. Short of Jesus, I know of no one who's completely free of that problem. So, either we're all going to have some refinement to undergo, or the kingdom is gonna be a mighty empty place.
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Old 04-30-2013, 06:51 PM
 
1,493 posts, read 1,373,953 times
Reputation: 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
And the Barclay's, Abbott's, Hough's of this world are going to be held responsible for their deception. They are Satan's puppets who are leading the unstable minded to their eternal destruction.
Wow, you talk as if you have a boxseat view in to the destinies of people who know Greek and probably the Bible alot better than you.. Ya know, if your arguments were anywhere close to being on par with your hell-fire breathing, I might actually take them more seriously. Don't you think its finally time to hang up the bullhorn and consider that you might not have a perfect understanding of the Bible?..much less one that would merit such certain damnation talk?
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Old 04-30-2013, 07:00 PM
 
Location: where people are either too stupid to leave or too stuck to move
3,982 posts, read 6,675,828 times
Reputation: 3689
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckd83 View Post
haha...any parent who does not punish their children for their disobedience is a bad parent, any judge who does not punish a criminal for their crimes is a bad judge, but any God who does punish a man for his sins is a bad God.
If you do something wrong and your parents spank you that's okay. But if they killed you would say "we'll that's a bit much" . If you did petty thief and a judge sent you to the electric chair you would think we'll that's a bit much" . So a god who created you as a sinful being(if angels couldn't stop from sinning how he thought humans would do better i don't know), set up impossible rules you, never appears and then want to punish you infinitely for only a finite amount of years lived most would think "we'll that's a bit much" .
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Old 04-30-2013, 07:22 PM
 
Location: Arizona
28,956 posts, read 16,277,508 times
Reputation: 2295
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
I am confused. I think I misunderstood Twin's point ... I thought he was saying that if someone didn't believe in eternal torment they automatically must be immoral. Or perhaps that the only way God could overcome our flesh is if we are afraid of going to hell.

But, no, I guess he's attempting to support his belief that some people are going to be eternally tormented. Of course, the passage he quoted doesn't say anything about eternal torment. And according to the passage no one who acts according to the flesh can inherit the kingdom. Short of Jesus, I know of no one who's completely free of that problem. So, either we're all going to have some refinement to undergo, or the kingdom is gonna be a mighty empty place.
I would say, there are many who believe that anything which goes against God's nature is immoral, according to their understanding.
But the Spirit is neither male, nor female, thus the immorality (wickedness) would be to oppose his nature, which is love for all humanity.
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Old 04-30-2013, 07:39 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 12,458,554 times
Reputation: 1319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jrhockney View Post
Wow, you talk as if you have a boxseat view in to the destinies of people who know Greek and probably the Bible alot better than you.. Ya know, if your arguments were anywhere close to being on par with your hell-fire breathing, I might actually take them more seriously. Don't you think its finally time to hang up the bullhorn and consider that you might not have a perfect understanding of the Bible?..much less one that would merit such certain damnation talk?
I trust that Jesus knew what he was talking when called those who hated the truth "dogs" ... and they are outside.
“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and
may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."
I trust that Jesus knew what he was talking when called those who hated the truth "goats" and they are cursed.
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.' "
I trust that Jesus knew what he was talking when warned about rejecting him as the truth
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."

And since Jesus said it will happen to those who reject the truth ... those who claim otherwise are " everyone who loves and practices falsehood."
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Old 04-30-2013, 07:46 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 12,458,554 times
Reputation: 1319
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
I am confused. I think I misunderstood Twin's point ... I thought he was saying that if someone didn't believe in eternal torment they automatically must be immoral. Or perhaps that the only way God could overcome our flesh is if we are afraid of going to hell.

But, no, I guess he's attempting to support his belief that some people are going to be eternally tormented. Of course, the passage he quoted doesn't say anything about eternal torment. And according to the passage no one who acts according to the flesh can inherit the kingdom. Short of Jesus, I know of no one who's completely free of that problem. So, either we're all going to have some refinement to undergo, or the kingdom is gonna be a mighty empty place.
If you want to know ... read the Bible. Jesus spoke who will be and those who will not.
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious
throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from
another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right
and the goats on his left.
  • Jesus says "those" .... not "all will"
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
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Old 04-30-2013, 08:02 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,153 posts, read 3,397,651 times
Reputation: 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
Then they will go away into kolasis aionios (age-during corrective chastisement) but the righteous to life eonian. When God's plan for the ages has been completed, both kolasis aionios and life eonian will come to an end with everyone saved. Then eternity will continue.

Everyone who is cast into the lake of fire which is the second death will be saved out of it.

Greek scholar William Barclay wrote concerning kolasis aionion (age-during corrective chastisement) in Matthew 25:46
"The Greek word for punishment is kolasis, which was not originally an ethical word at all. It originally meant the pruning of trees to make them grow better. There is no instance in Greek secular literature where kolasis does not mean remedial punishment. It is a simple fact that in Greek kolasis always means remedial punishment. God's punishment is always for man's cure."

See what other Greek scholars say about it too.

AN ANALYTICAL STUDY OF WORDS – Louis Abbott
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/asw/Chapter11.html

Fifteen literally translated (not interpretively translated) Bibles that reveal what God will do with the sinners in Matthew 25:46
Concordant Literal, Young’s literal, Wilson’s Emphatic Diaglott, Rotherham’s Emphasized, Scarlett’s, J.W. Hanson’s New Covenant, Twentieth Century, Ferrar Fenton, The Western New Testament, Weymouth’s (unedited), Clementson’s, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, The Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible, Bullinger’s Companion Bible margins, Jonathan Mitchell’s translation (2010).


Regarding the meaning of aionios
Dean Hough wrote “The definition given in THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) is helpful. Concerning aionios we read, “In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . .” (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ.
The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ’s cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28).”
Dean Hough


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Old 04-30-2013, 08:25 PM
 
8,146 posts, read 6,886,001 times
Reputation: 8334
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
If you want to know ... read the Bible. Jesus spoke who will be and those who will not.
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious
throne. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from
another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right
and the goats on his left.
  • Jesus says "those" .... not "all will"
“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels

“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
I have news for you twin.
You are a GOAT.
You are also a sheep, my friend.

As we ALL are.

As in Adam, ALL die.
So in Christ, shall ALL live.


peace,
sparrow
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