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Punishment that does not end in reformation is vindictiveness, which cannot be ascribed to our Merciful Father.
How then has it come to pass that belief in eternal punishment took root in the Christian church?
Ancient doctors of the church, mislead by theoretical conclusions, declared that sin was an infinite transgression, to be atoned for only by an infinite expiation. The doctrine is the child of human reasoning.”
As rodgertutt can only regurgitate the same stuff over and over, without engaging in dialogue, I can only conclude that he rejects eternal punishment because he has no concept of who he has sinned against. I encourage him to read and digest slowly WCF Ch. 2:
I. There is but one only, living, and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions; immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will, for His own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him; and withal, most just, and terrible in His judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.
II. God has all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of Himself; and is alone in and unto Himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which He has made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting His own glory in, by, unto, and upon them. He is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things; and has most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them whatsoever Himself pleases. In His sight all things are open and manifest, His knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to Him contingent, or uncertain. He is most holy in all His counsels, in all His works, and in all His commands. To Him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience He is pleased to require of them.
III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.
As rodgertutt can only regurgitate the same stuff over and over, without engaging in dialogue, I can only conclude that he rejects eternal punishment because he has no concept of who he has sinned against. I encourage him to read and digest slowly WCF Ch. 2:
I. There is but one only, living, and true God, who is infinite in being and perfection, a most pure spirit, invisible, without body, parts, or passions; immutable, immense, eternal, incomprehensible, almighty, most wise, most holy, most free, most absolute; working all things according to the counsel of His own immutable and most righteous will, for His own glory; most loving, gracious, merciful, long-suffering, abundant in goodness and truth, forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin; the rewarder of them that diligently seek Him; and withal, most just, and terrible in His judgments, hating all sin, and who will by no means clear the guilty.
II. God has all life, glory, goodness, blessedness, in and of Himself; and is alone in and unto Himself all-sufficient, not standing in need of any creatures which He has made, nor deriving any glory from them, but only manifesting His own glory in, by, unto, and upon them. He is the alone fountain of all being, of whom, through whom, and to whom are all things; and has most sovereign dominion over them, to do by them, for them, or upon them whatsoever Himself pleases. In His sight all things are open and manifest, His knowledge is infinite, infallible, and independent upon the creature, so as nothing is to Him contingent, or uncertain. He is most holy in all His counsels, in all His works, and in all His commands. To Him is due from angels and men, and every other creature, whatsoever worship, service, or obedience He is pleased to require of them.
III. In the unity of the Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity: God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost. The Father is of none, neither begotten nor proceeding; the Son is eternally begotten of the Father; the Holy Ghost eternally proceeding from the Father and the Son.
That's interesting. The quran was written between 610-632AD. Meaning that around that time (a large part of) the Christians and Jews believed in limited punishment.
The majority of Jews is still doing so to up to today irrc.
Thats how I rembered the verse, however it might also mean, that the Christians believed that only punishment for themselves is limited, in the sense of purgatory and that no Christian is eternally damned, which I think is still believed by Catholics.
The fact that Mohammed heavily copied from Jews and Christians when he composed the koran, which would include the idea of hell, might not support that the majority of Christians were universalists back then.
Would be interesting which branch of Christianity lived around Mekka at the time of Mohammed and which language they spoke, maybe Copts?
Originally Posted by twin.spin
I trust that Jesus knew what he was talking when called those who hated the truth "dogs" ... and they are outside.“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood."
They you go again, accusing those who disagree with you of being "those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood" When will you stop accusing the brethren,Twin . . .it is a dangerous practice.
[1] what I consider "the brethren" aren't those who embrace the Satanical lie of looking inward, mock the Bible while in the same breath quote it, call those who wrote and believed what they read in times past the vomit of name calling
[2] What you call dangerous, God calls it "expose the deeds of darkness". Ephesians 5:11
Per usual, Jesus knew what he was saying about the "dogs" when he said:
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Originally Posted by twin.spin " I trust that Jesus knew what he was talking when called those who hated the truth "goats" and they are cursed.
“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.'
Now you know this had NOTHING to do with what they BELIEVED as you imply, Twin. It was what they did or did not DO. Why do you falsely accuse the brethren?
No implication ... just you not understanding the truth of what the Bible says.
Hebrews 11:6 And withoutfaith it is impossible to please God,
You're just going to have to get over the self inclusion whining of just what makes a brethren a "brethren"
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
Originally Posted by twin.spin I trust that Jesus knew what he was talking when warned about rejecting him as the truth
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
And since Jesus said it will happen to those who reject the truth ... those who claim otherwise are " everyone who loves and practices falsehood."
You know that those you are accusing here do NOT reject Christ and this has nothing to do with their disagreement with YOU. YOU do not hold a patent on the truth . . . so to disagree with YOU does not mean they reject the TRUTH or Christ. They just reject YOUR interpretation. Since they sincerely believe what they are saying, Twin . . . it is NOT lying or practicing falsehood. Speaking the truth AS THEY KNOW IT IS NOT LYING.
Christians do have a patent on the truth.
since Jesus said it will happen to those who reject the truth ... those who claim otherwise are " everyone who loves and practices falsehood." Mark 3:29
"but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”
those who claim otherwise are " everyone who loves and practices falsehood."
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
those who claim otherwise are " everyone who loves and practices falsehood."
Romans 1:18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
those who claim otherwise are " everyone who loves and practices falsehood."
Revelation 14:10
they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
those who claim otherwise are " everyone who loves and practices falsehood."
[1] what I consider "the brethren" aren't those who embrace the Satanical lie of looking inward, mock the Bible while in the same breath quote it, call those who wrote and believed what they read in times past the vomit of name calling
[2] What you call dangerous, God calls it "expose the deeds of darkness". Ephesians 5:11
Per usual, Jesus knew what he was saying about the "dogs" when he said:
Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.
No implication ... just you not understanding the truth of what the Bible says.
Hebrews 11:6 And withoutfaith it is impossible to please God,
You're just going to have to get over the self inclusion whining of just what makes a brethren a "brethren"
Christians do have a patent on the truth.
since Jesus said it will happen to those who reject the truth ... those who claim otherwise are " everyone who loves and practices falsehood."
Mark 3:29
"but whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; they are guilty of an eternal sin.”
those who claim otherwise are " everyone who loves and practices falsehood."
John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
those who claim otherwise are " everyone who loves and practices falsehood."
Romans 1:18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
those who claim otherwise are " everyone who loves and practices falsehood."
Revelation 14:10 they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.
those who claim otherwise are " everyone who loves and practices falsehood."
It is useless for ETers to quote from interpretively translated Bibles.
URs don't recognize those Bibles as being the word of God.
Don't you know Greek? Darkness means light, eternal means temporal, wrath means mercy, hate means love, rejection means embracing, torment means correction, punishment means chastisement, sin means not-so-bad mistakes, Jesus means Buddha, Bible means Quran.
You see, it's not the object of belief that matters, just the sincerity. I could outright spit in the face of God and bow down to an idol I've made, but it doesn't matter. We're all going to heaven because love conquers all. I guess I'll be going kicking and screaming.
It is useless for ETers to quote from interpretively translated Bibles.
URs don't recognize those Bibles as being the word of God.
Oh man! This made my day. I haven't laughed that hard in a while. Thanks.
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How severe and heinous is a crime committed against the holiness of God?
