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Old 05-01-2013, 06:05 PM
 
Location: New England
37,337 posts, read 28,193,069 times
Reputation: 2744

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Meanwhile, Saul ( all that stands for the old nature that opposes all that is God)was still breathing out murderous threats against the Lord's disciples.
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Old 05-01-2013, 06:12 PM
 
2,029 posts, read 1,358,162 times
Reputation: 991
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
That is about the sickest thing I have ever heard. (vomit)
Agreed. Who did Jesus have problems with? The religious. It's the same thing here. They know religion but do not know God. If they did, they wouldn't insist on turning Him into a monster. They even lie to defend their beliefs. They probably figure it's OK to lie, the ends justifies the means. What the hell, UR'ers are damned anyway according to them.
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Old 05-01-2013, 06:18 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 12,458,554 times
Reputation: 1319
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
Wow! That's quite a declaration Twin.
That means you believe that all of these Christians are going to be "damned."

Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism

and

Christian Universalism: Universalist Thought Through Church History

I wish you could understand how incredible that sounds.
The true Jesus declares otherwise .... the false Christ's have many to speak for them.
The false Christ's oppose this:
if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
YLT
but even if we or a messenger out of heaven may proclaim good news to you different from what we did proclaim to you -- anathema let him be!

as we have said before, and now say again, If any one to you may proclaim good news different from what ye did receive -- anathema let him be!
anathema: (Webster dictionary)
1
a
: one that is cursed by ecclesiastical authority

b
: someone or something intensely disliked or loathed —usually used as a predicate nominative <this notion was anathema to most of his countrymen — S. J. Gould>
2
a : a ban or curse solemnly pronounced by ecclesiastical authority and accompanied by excommunication

b
: the denunciation of something as accursed

c
: a vigorous denunciation : curse

And what does Jesus say:
Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

UR is the false gospel hope to those on the left of Jesus .... those which Jesus said are "dogs" that are on the outside who will never be forgiven.
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Old 05-01-2013, 06:35 PM
 
1,493 posts, read 1,373,953 times
Reputation: 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckd83 View Post
I guess your underlining question deals with the dilemma of determinism. How can someone be responsible and punished for something they are not ultimately responsible for? This dilemma is not exclusive to theists so I would like to hear your thoughts.

Reformed Christian theology has come down on the "first" and "second" causes of all things. The first being God, the second being man. God ordains and causes all things, but man's choices and will are his to make and are not coerced, otherwise it would not be a will.
Ah, someone with courage to engage the philosophical side of this Sorry for the delay and the format, but I'm in kind of a hurry.

I'm not sure its as much about Determinism as it is about the creation of disproportionate and absurd consequences for virtually unavoidable situations that are a direct consequence of the creation method. Even under the Reformed Theology model your talking about (..I think) man is not responsible for the creation of a torturous hell, God is and that's where the buck stops. Consequences of freewill is one thing (at least for Arminians) and rightly so, but for God to expect his imperfect creation to be perfect (which is impossible) or find Christ within their 1-120 year lifespan or doom himself to eternal torture (and doom his kids as well in Adams case) is about as logical as a soldier yelling at his grenade for killing people he just threw in to crowd. The logic of it is absurdly sadistic by known human standard of justice including the most extreme torture based justice systems invented by man. From an outsider looking in to the Christian faith, the logic of this would appear to them to be infinitely crazier than half the stuff that comes out of Westboro Baptist...and we wonder why there are so many Heavy Metal songs bashing us, lol!

More and more people are waking up to this and it is even starting to make the traditional idea of hell dangerous to use in evangelism when it use to work almost perfectly on uneducated peasents in the middle ages. This is largely the reason why there are so many people here at this forum who look towards alternate interpretations of the bible (or have just stepped away from Chrstianity altogether). We have people here who believe in Eternal Separation (actually believed my many if not most of the popular mainstream Christian Apologists), Annihilationism, and lots people who believe in Universal Reconciliation (URs) in various forms all because they have come to realize the logical and moral absurdity of a "loving" creator torturing his creations forever. I was an Eter for a while who eventually became more of an ESer and now I'm ultimately undecided but hope for UR and I do not dismiss the possibility of it especially after learning the history of it and a and learn more about the Greek and Hebrew words in question.

Last edited by Jrhockney; 05-01-2013 at 07:50 PM..
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Old 05-01-2013, 06:40 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,153 posts, read 3,397,651 times
Reputation: 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Those who promote UR will be damned .... so says God.
Wow! That's quite a declaration Twin, in spite of what you said on your last post.
That means you believe that all of these Christians are going to be "damned."

Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism

and

Christian Universalism: Universalist Thought Through Church History

I wish you could understand how incredible that sounds.
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Old 05-01-2013, 07:44 PM
 
Location: Arizona
28,956 posts, read 16,277,508 times
Reputation: 2295
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckd83 View Post
I guess your underlining question deals with the dilemma of determinism. How can someone be responsible and punished for something they are not ultimately responsible for? This dilemma is not exclusive to theists so I would like to hear your thoughts.

Reformed Christian theology has come down on the "first" and "second" causes of all things. The first being God, the second being man.
God ordains and causes all things, but man's choices and will are his to make and are not coerced, otherwise it would not be a will.
It’s not a matter of first you make the thief, then, you punish him.
From the Scriptures, it appears that man devises his own ways; until corrected.
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Old 05-01-2013, 11:20 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 12,458,554 times
Reputation: 1319
Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
Wow! That's quite a declaration Twin, in spite of what you said on your last post.
That means you believe that all of these Christians are going to be "damned."

Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism

and

Christian Universalism: Universalist Thought Through Church History

I wish you could understand how incredible that sounds.
The false Christ's oppose this:
if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!

As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!
YLT
but even if we or a messenger out of heaven may proclaim good news to you different from what we did proclaim to you -- anathema let him be!

as we have said before, and now say again, If any one to you may proclaim good news different from what ye did receive -- anathema let him be!
anathema: (Webster dictionary)
1
a
: one that is cursed by ecclesiastical authority

b
: someone or something intensely disliked or loathed —usually used as a predicate nominative <this notion was anathema to most of his countrymen — S. J. Gould>
2
a : a ban or curse solemnly pronounced by ecclesiastical authority and accompanied by excommunication

b
: the denunciation of something as accursed

c
: a vigorous denunciation : curse

And what does Jesus say:
Matthew 25:41 “Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

UR is the false gospel hope to those on the left of Jesus .... those which Jesus said are "dogs" that are on the outside who will never be forgiven.
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Old 05-02-2013, 01:16 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,153 posts, read 3,397,651 times
Reputation: 259
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Those who promote UR will be damned. They will never be forgiven .... so says God.
Wow! That's quite a declaration Twin!
That means you believe that all of these Christians are going to be "damned" and will never be forgiven?

Believers and Supporters of Christian Universalism

and

Christian Universalism: Universalist Thought Through Church History

and all of these thousands of Christians are going to be damned too?
WHAT MOST OF THE EARLY CHRISTIANS BELIEVED
Universalism:
The Prevailing Doctrine Of the Christian Church During Its First Five-Hundred Years
http://hellbusters.8m.com/updcontents.html
And they were reading the Bible in its original language!

BY WAY OF CONTRAST (Matt. 25:41 "eonian fire")

SOONER OR LATER GOD ALL IN ALL - Anthony J. Borrello
“As hostile and objectionable our dear brethren may be, there are answers and explanations for every argument and/or insinuation presented against the undeniable fact, That God indeed is a God ‘Who will have all men to be saved, and come into a knowledge of the truth (1Tim. 2:4). As greatly as man and their religious attempt to fight this utterly dynamic evangel (good news), God shall eventually be All in all (1Cor. 15:28)."
"But God is in no hurry. He has specific eons, and administrations within the eons, to fulfill His universal purpose and intention of universal reconciliation. All came out of Christ, including Adam. Consequently all shall be restored by and through Christ, ‘yet each in his own class’ (1Cor. 15:23)."
When clouds of confusion gather regarding God’s plan for mankind, and despair come showering down upon our studies, turn to God’s word originally rendered, then, like a searchlight in the darkness of night, His love, and His light of understanding will surely beam forth. God will not allow any to be eternally lost. He is a loving Creator, working out His purpose for the universe, Who will get love from all in return, so that He can and will be ‘ALL in all,’ to all, ‘later.’”

Last edited by rodgertutt; 05-02-2013 at 02:03 AM..
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Old 05-02-2013, 04:19 AM
 
Location: Germany
1,821 posts, read 2,325,821 times
Reputation: 1031
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
That those in Capernaum will be punished more severely in hell than those people of Sodom.
As Jesus said:
“The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows.
But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows."
The people of Capernaum knew \ physically saw the master and did not get ready or does not do what the master wants. They will get beaten with many blows

The people of Sodom does not know and did things deserving punishment. They will be beaten with few blows.
Few blows then mean few blows per minute, since it is everlasting as you assure?

This not so different from what the koran teaches

47:27 Then how [will it be] when the angels take them in death, striking their faces and their backs?

Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
That is about the sickest thing I have ever heard. (vomit)
Don't mind, those who utter these words do so to their own harm.
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Old 05-02-2013, 04:31 AM
 
376 posts, read 418,295 times
Reputation: 100
That would be against God's own law.

Deut 25:3 Forty stripes he may give him, and not exceed: lest, if he should exceed, and beat him more than these with many stripes, then your brother should seem degraded unto you.


The Jews were so scared to give over 40 lashes that they set a safety margin of 39 in case they miscounted.

2 Cor 11:14 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes less one.

Last edited by WhiteWings; 05-02-2013 at 04:57 AM..
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