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That's one of the points that has been made before ... it's intellectually dishonest to say what happens to one group of people is eternal (or whatever the term used) and the other group is temporary when they are being compared.
Its not intellectually dishonest when we are talking about eternal and timeless/multidimensional things we don't understand AND there are multiple historical, scriptural, and logical reasons to believe the punishments/corrections of the goats do not last forever or to at least make room for reasonable doubt. How about making room for the "Ultimately, I don't know what will happen to the Goats at the end of the ages" position?
There is still far too much Pharisaic arrogance in today's Church when it comes to the endtimes and this constant condemnation of URs to hell is just ridiculous. Even Saint Augustine, who gave you that Matthew 25:46 argument, didn't think the URs of his day were hell bound. He merely said that they were "in error" and I think he even called them "brethren" if I remember the quote correctly. The day Twinspin admits that MAYBE URs aren't kitchen appliances of the Devil guaranteed for hell will be a happy day of rejoicing for me and probably many here.
How about making room for the "Ultimately, I don't know what will happen to the Goats at the end of the ages" position?
I would definitely like to hear this from the universalists! It would be a lot better than sounding the all clear when it may not be.
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Originally Posted by Jrhockney
this constant condemnation of URs to hell is just ridiculous.
Who said THEY were hell bound? I think the consensus is that sinners are hell bound and believing they're not could ultimately lead to their demise, when they could have believed in a remedy.
Who said THEY were hell bound? I think the consensus is that sinners are hell bound and believing they're not could ultimately lead to their demise, when they could have believed in a remedy.
Actually several people on this forum have said they are and thats really my biggest concern, especially when even Saint Augustine wouldn't agree. I agree that some may slack off if they believe they will eventually be saved anyways, but that's another reason why they need Jesus to work on their heart because it is not in the right place and they need to understand that they will still be held accountable either through some "not neccessarily eternal hell" or by some other means God has planned. Few URs disagree with that with both of those possibilities. If hell turns out to be just God's consuming fire (as many URs believe), the slackers will have whatever evil is in them burned away by it and I'm sure that won't be too much fun.
And night shall not be any more, and no need of a lamp, and light of [the] sun; for [the] Lord God shall shine upon them, and they shall reign to the ages of ages.
"They" might either refer to "God and the Lamb" (22:3) or the saints, that the sains are meant appears to be the common opinion.
Yet in 1 Corinthians 15:21-25 we read:
For since by man [came] death, by man also resurrection of [those that are] dead.For as in the Adam all die, thus also in the Christ all shall be made alive. But each in his own rank: [the] first-fruits, Christ; then those that are the Christ's at his coming. Then the end, when he gives up the kingdom to him [who is] God and Father; when he shall have annulled all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign untilhe put all enemies under his feet.
Obviously all rule and authority (this would also apply to the saint's rule) will be annulled in due time, except God's, so "ages of ages" are not necessarily endless.
These events here appear to chronologically exceed the Revelation of John, since later in 1 Corinthians 15 it is spoken about immortality, yet in the New Jerusalem there still dwell obviously mortal people:
Revelation 22:2:
In the midst of its street, and of the river, on this side and on that side, [the] tree of life, producing twelve fruits, in each month yielding its fruit; and the leaves of the tree for healing of the nations.
Immortal beings are not in need of healing. Also see here:
Who said THEY were hell bound? I think the consensus is that sinners are hell bound and believing they're not could ultimately lead to their demise, when they could have believed in a remedy.
You did. Towards the beginning of this thread you kept saying you wanted a guarantee that IF you believed UR you wouldn't end up in hell. In other words, you were saying that UR believers will be eternally tormented if they are wrong (and you obviously believe they are).
You did. Towards the beginning of this thread you kept saying you wanted a guarantee that IF you believed UR you wouldn't end up in hell. In other words, you were saying that UR believers will be eternally tormented if they are wrong (and you obviously believe they are).
Person A: A true Christian whose object of belief is Jesus Christ who also believes in UR will be saved from their sins BECAUSE of their faith in Christ.
Person B: A false Christian, pagan, or atheist who sins and does not seek a remedy in Jesus who also believes in UR will be damned BECAUSE of their sins. Their belief in UR gave them false assurance.
I am talking about person B, you are talking about Person A.
Person B: A false Christian, pagan, or atheist who sins and does not seek a remedy in Jesus who also believes in UR will be damned BECAUSE of their sins. Their belief in UR gave them false assurance.
And somebody who believes in eternal damnation can be no false Christian?
Let's say his Catholic believe or the once-saved-always-saved-doctrine gave him false assurance, is this not a problem of any doctrine related to eschatology? Are there no false Calvinists whose belief in total predestination might give them false assurance?
You should not forget that to believe in Christian universalism you must believe in Christ in the first place.
Person A: A true Christian whose object of belief is Jesus Christ who also believes in UR will be saved from their sins BECAUSE of their faith in Christ.
Person B: A false Christian, pagan, or atheist who sins and does not seek a remedy in Jesus who also believes in UR will be damned BECAUSE of their sins. Their belief in UR gave them false assurance.
I am talking about person B, you are talking about Person A.
A "false" Christian is not a believer, by definition, therefore wouldn't believe UR. Pagans don't care what Christians believe about God/hell since they have their own beliefs. And an atheist doesn't believe in God, much less UR. So, Person B does not even exist.
You, in the beginning of this thread, kept asking for assurance that if you believed in UR and it was wrong, that you wouldn't end up in hell. You are a "real" Christian, are you not? Then why would you be worried about ending up in eternal torment for believing that God will save all?
And somebody who believes in eternal damnation can be no false Christian?
Let's say his Catholic believe or the once-saved-always-saved-doctrine gave him false assurance, is this not a problem of any doctrine related to eschatology? Are there no false Calvinists whose belief in total predestination might give them false assurance?
You should not forget that to believe in Christian universalism you must believe in Christ in the first place.
The object of your belief is the means of your salvation. To believe the truth is to be saved, to believe a lie is to be damned. In this case, Christ is the object, not a particular eschatology.
A "false" Christian is not a believer, by definition, therefore wouldn't believe UR. Pagans don't care what Christians believe about God/hell since they have their own beliefs. And an atheist doesn't believe in God, much less UR. So, Person B does not even exist.
You, in the beginning of this thread, kept asking for assurance that if you believed in UR and it was wrong, that you wouldn't end up in hell. You are a "real" Christian, are you not?
No.
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Then why would you be worried about ending up in eternal torment for believing that God will save all?
I'm wondering if I should be worried or not. Some say I should, some say I shouldn't. I want assurance from you, as a person who says I shouldn't, that I won't end up in hell eternally.
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