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From my understanding, the gospel proclaims who God is, the problem of human sin, a remedy, and a summons to repent and believe. People hear the problem of their human sin and seek a remedy. "What must we do?" If in the end there was no problem, why seek a remedy?
Chuck, Christian UR's have never said that there is not problem, or that a remedy is not needed. They just understand that being tormented by God for eternity is not the problem. Sin is the problem. And as long as one is unrepentant they will continue to suffer the effects of that problem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckd83
Holy crap people. Hypothetically, I'm an atheist. I've heard there is something to flee from (the wrath of God) and unto (Jesus Christ). You're saying I have nothing to worry about. I, therefore, continue in my atheist ways. If you're wrong, I end up in hell eternally.
If you are so sure that I won't end up in hell, why not give me a guarantee? If not, I assume you're unsure about the whole thing. This is not that complicated.
What do you mean by "atheist ways"? Atheists, as a group, don't have a "way". Some are loving, some not so much. Chuck, if you were truly an atheist, then you wouldn't believe there is a God, so you certainly wouldn't be concerned about a mythical being's wrath.
Holy crap people. Hypothetically, I'm an atheist. I've heard there is something to flee from (the wrath of God) and unto (Jesus Christ). You're saying I have nothing to worry about. I, therefore, continue in my atheist ways. If you're wrong, I end up in hell eternally.
If you are so sure that I won't end up in hell, why not give me a guarantee? If not, I assume you're unsure about the whole thing. This is not that complicated.
The only guarantee we can give you is what we perceive to be the word of God.
But since we disagree on what the word of God says, we will necessarily arrive at a different conclusions.
URs believe in kolasis eonian. ETers believe in eternal torment.
URs are so certain that ETers are wrong that your concern "If you're wrong, I end up in hell eternally," is not even an issue with us. We are glad to rely on the living God Who is the Saviour of ALL mankind, not just believers.
"In 1Tim. 4:9-11 we are told that the living God `is the Saviour of all mankind, especially of those who believe,' and with this 1Tim. 2: 4-6 concurs. Many seek to limit it to believers, but they overlook the significance of the double statement. That there is a special salvation for believers is plainly stated, but this does not limit the other part of the statement, rather does it emphasize it. The salvation of believers is a special work; they are a special class in the `all mankind.' God's will for mankind is salvation, not as an experimental salvation toying with the will and choice of men, but as their Disposer – God.
My dear brethren, let us embrace this glorious truth which God has revealed for us. Let it so become a part of us that our lives will be reflecting it. Let it fill our hearts with the love of God and His glorious Son. Let us be rendering praise to the living God, the universal Creator and Reconciler, the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.
`To Him be glory for the eons! Amen!' " REDEMPTION IN TWO PARTS http://www.godfire.net/eby/allinall.html
<snip>
URs are so certain that ETers are wrong that your concern "If you're wrong, I end up in hell eternally," is not even an issue with us. We are glad to rely on the living God Who is the Saviour of ALL mankind, not just believers. <snip>
"Eternal hell" is not even a blip on the radar, other than the desire to point out how it is a destructive doctrine and antithetical to the gospel.
"Eternal hell" is not even a blip on the radar, other than the desire to point out how it is a destructive doctrine and antithetical to the gospel.
Looks like I'll be in it. Don't be surprised if I ask you to put some water on my tongue. I'll expect a response "I believe you'll be out soon, but I can't guarantee it."
Looks like I'll be in it. Don't be surprised if I ask you to put some water on my tongue. I'll expect a response "I believe you'll be out soon, but I can't guarantee it."
Why are you concerned about God tormenting you for eternity?
Looks like I'll be in it. Don't be surprised if I ask you to put some water on my tongue. I'll expect a response "I believe you'll be out soon, but I can't guarantee it."
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo
Why are you concerned about God tormenting you for eternity?
Chuck, you keep going back to this seeming concern that you are going to be condemned by God to eternal torment. Is this just some sort of a rhetorical device you are using, or are you seriously concerned? I sincerely want to know.
If you're concerned, please explain why and perhaps others can help you to find peace.
If it's a rhetorical device, it doesn't make sense so it's not working. If you think that you need to believe in Jesus as a way to avoid being tormented for eternity, and that's what you need to do for peace of mind then, by all means, believe in Jesus as your ticket out of ET. Hopefully, though, you're seeking more than just fire insurance and are actually seeking to know and love God and to be transformed by God's love. If you are, then I trust that you will find what you are seeking.
From my understanding, the gospel proclaims who God is, the problem of human sin, a remedy, and a summons to repent and believe. People hear the problem of their human sin and seek a remedy. "What must we do?" If in the end there was no problem, why seek a remedy?
These must be the people, of whom either Jerome or Origen (or both) said that universalism must be kept secret to them, cause they are even hardly by the fear of eternal damnation compelled to live a virtuous life. Given your sentiments, they seem to have been right.
To me it appears, as if in your opinion, people become Christians for no other reason than to escape eternal damnation, I don't think that this is the gospel.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuckd83
Holy crap people. Hypothetically, I'm an atheist. I've heard there is something to flee from (the wrath of God) and unto (Jesus Christ). You're saying I have nothing to worry about. I, therefore, continue in my atheist ways. If you're wrong, I end up in hell eternally.
If you are so sure that I won't end up in hell, why not give me a guarantee? If not, I assume you're unsure about the whole thing. This is not that complicated.
Are you an atheist? Did you fool us all the time?
Nobody will or can give you a guarantee; can you give me a guarantee that the Bible is the word of God, that Catholicism or Islam is wrong?
No man can know these things with certainty, therefore it is called faith.
Hebrew 11:1 (KJV)
Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen.
These must be the people, of whom either Jerome or Origen (or both) said that universalism must be kept secret to them, cause they are even hardly by the fear of eternal damnation compelled to live a virtuous life. Given your sentiments, they seem to have been right.
To me it appears, as if in your opinion, people become Christians for no other reason than to escape eternal damnation, I don't think that this is the gospel.
You have grasped the central (and BOGUS) argument for the hell doctrine, sven. It was true when we were less civilized (and clearly some of humanity still is) . . . that we were barely motivated enough by fear to live a virtuous life. Today fear is not so necessary . . . and it is actually counterproductive to the Spirit of living a virtuous life . . . agape love. Fear and love are incompatible . . . no matter what kind of fear we are talking about . . . including the silly "reverential awe" type..ANY fear is incompatible with love . . . and love is what God and we are all about.
Since Galations 1:6-9 is the truth, those proclaiming false gospels are under God's curse.
Since Matthew 25:31-46 is the truth, those who are cursed are sent to hell.
No doubt, with enough effort, a person will be able not to connect the two.
Twin, there is so much reasonable doubt you cannot overcome that your certainty about the URs is completely absurd and again, even Saint Augustine disagrees with you. Considering how over the top he was on beliefs do you have any concept of how extreme that makes you look? I'm starting to think that you yourself have such a paralyzing fear of hell that you have lost your ability to see anything but your own theology because you think that openness to any possible alterntive explanation, even it makes alot more logical and moral sense, it is tantamount to being considered "luke-warm" by Jesus. My best guess anyways
Pauls teaching is apart of the reason URs believe what they believe. Would Paul say: "Let the URs be cursed for misunderstanding one of the details about Eternity I've preached on because they don't know my odd form of Koine Greek!"? Maybe in your Pharisiac reality, but in mine, Paul has more commonsense than that and so did Saint Augustine!!! Given, that Jesus doesn't even mention accepting him as our Lord and Savior in that Matthew passage, I think its also presumptuous to assume it even applies to all the unsaved (as opposed to those who didn't help the poor) even if there wasn't a ton of reasonable doubt to be offered on the total meaning of that passage and and/or its usage of aionion.
"Eternal hell" is not even a blip on the radar, other than the desire to point out how it is a destructive doctrine and antithetical to the gospel.
Before my thread drops off page one, I would like to make what might be a closing statement about why I posted my opening post.
Just like in the case of Charles Slagle, my sanity quite literally depends on rejecting the ET interpretation of the Bible.
If anyone on this forum feels the same way, the exposition/testimony of Charles will probably be a huge help to them like it was to me. During my 74 years of living I have not found any writing that has been more helpful than this one. Why not check it out?
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST absolute assurance in jesus christ
You can Google up Charles Slagle and find many more good writings by him.
Just type in Charles Slagle.
In my opinion the greatest of all manifestations of God's grace in action in this world is that anyone (Christian or Muslim) can believe that God will let anyone suffer forever and not go insane thinking about it.
If I were to become convinced that the Bible does teach ET, I would live out the rest of my life as an agnostic, trying to treat others the way I would like to be treated by them, and hoping for the best after I die, rather than claim to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever.
The idea that the Bible is the word of God is not important enough to me to try to embrace the idea that it teaches an endless-hell god. No amount of threatenings by ETers could possibly change my mind about that.
After thought:
If conscious eternal torment is true, why did God not repeatedly plaster warnings of it from Genesis to Malachi? A Calvinist would probably say, “Why bother. Their goose is cooked anyway since the non-Israelites were totally depraved and not among the elect. But how would a non-Calvinist (free-willer) answer that question. I wonder?
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"Eternal hell" is not even a blip on the radar, other than the desire to point out how it is a destructive doctrine and antithetical to the gospel.
If you think that you need to believe in Jesus as a way to avoid being tormented for eternity, and that's what you need to do for peace of mind then, by all means, believe in Jesus as your ticket out of ET. Hopefully, though, you're seeking more than just fire insurance and are actually seeking to know and love God and to be transformed by God's love. If you are, then I trust that you will find what you are seeking.
