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Old 11-04-2007, 09:06 PM
 
Location: Between Here and There
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mams1559 View Post
And Jesus' teachings, parable or not, show that He believed in the infallibility of scripture. He has said "have you not read what was told to you by God" or "how God spoke to him"?
Would it be too off topic to explain this one?
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Old 11-05-2007, 12:09 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
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Originally Posted by mams1559
Quote:
But who determines what is truth and what that truth is?
Simple, reality. It doesn't matter if you believe that you can fly, or how strong your faith is in your ability that you can fly, or that some scripture has it in black & white that you can fly.
Only reality can test if you can fly or not.
In other words, parables are like Zen koans, you have to think (and probably meditate on the question), to discover the truth.

The bible might confuse you because it contradicts itself, but reality, like the truth, cannot contradict itself.
This is why I have no faith in dogma.
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Old 11-05-2007, 07:06 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mams1559 View Post

And I prayerfully hope you don't see my response as any sort of attack on your beliefs. Science doesn't strengthen or weaken my faith. No, I don't believe in a global conspiracy either. However, in historical science, it's a continuing pattern of evolutionists teaching evolutionists and not accepting any criticism that there are problems with evolution, from secular scientists or creationists. So while I don't think it's deliberate, it's not going to change any time soon.
This is where I think you are wrong. Scientists would love nothing more than to disprove another scientists work.. If there was a crack in the foundation it will surely be found. I'm guessing the theory will (pardon my pun) evolve as we learn more and more about our biological past..

As to the gospels.. but you have to admit there are some 'interesting' points in the gospels.. Take the famous "Sermon on the Mount". Was it on the mount or was it on a plain? I think most realize that each gospel was written for a specific audience.. but there are contradictions (at least one) if you take it literally..

I have no problem with your belief system. My only problem would be introducing a 6,000 year old earth theory into schools. Thats it.
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Old 11-05-2007, 08:25 AM
 
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Default Jesus on Scripture

Well, irishmom, I hope I can do some justice here and explain what I mean when I said Jesus believed in the infallibility of scripture.

Jesus obeyed the word of God. The scriptures were Jesus' authority. He used the scriptures as His foundation. He quoted scripture to defeat satan. He came to do God's will, not man's and not His own. How did He know God's will? Because it was expressed in the scriptures. He quoted from them. He fullfilled them. He lived by them. I think it's clear Jesus believed that the scriptures were spoken by God and written by man through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Mark 12:26
Matthew 22:31,32,43
Matthew Ch. 4
Matthew 7:12
Mark 7:9,13

So, along those lines (and to keep this on topic) Jesus spoke on facts in Genesis as truth:

Luke 11:51 <- Abel as a real person
Matthew 24:37-39 <- Noah & Flood
Matthew 19:4,5 <- man & woman present from the beginning of creation - not millions of years later
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Old 11-05-2007, 09:03 AM
 
4,439 posts, read 8,194,025 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mams1559 View Post
Well, irishmom, I hope I can do some justice here and explain what I mean when I said Jesus believed in the infallibility of scripture.

Jesus obeyed the word of God. The scriptures were Jesus' authority. He used the scriptures as His foundation. He quoted scripture to defeat satan. He came to do God's will, not man's and not His own. How did He know God's will? Because it was expressed in the scriptures. He quoted from them. He fullfilled them. He lived by them. I think it's clear Jesus believed that the scriptures were spoken by God and written by man through the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Mark 12:26
Matthew 22:31,32,43
Matthew Ch. 4
Matthew 7:12
Mark 7:9,13

So, along those lines (and to keep this on topic) Jesus spoke on facts in Genesis as truth:

Luke 11:51 <- Abel as a real person
Matthew 24:37-39 <- Noah & Flood
Matthew 19:4,5 <- man & woman present from the beginning of creation - not millions of years later
But don't you find it interesting that of the 8 scriptures you listed 5 of them are from Matthew.. I was always under the impression that Matthew was written for an audience of 1st century Jews. So it would make sense to make as many links back to the Old Testament as possible.

Just saying its interesting..
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Old 11-05-2007, 09:11 AM
 
Location: ARK-KIN-SAW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by mams1559 Simple, reality. It doesn't matter if you believe that you can fly, or how strong your faith is in your ability that you can fly, or that some scripture has it in black & white that you can fly.
Only reality can test if you can fly or not.
In other words, parables are like Zen koans, you have to think (and probably meditate on the question), to discover the truth.

The bible might confuse you because it contradicts itself, but reality, like the truth, cannot contradict itself.
This is why I have no faith in dogma.
For me, there are two realitys, one of which is not really a reality and one that is..there is mans reality and Gods reality(where all things are possible), with man there are limitations on our thinking, our ability to grasp what God can do, and only thru the leading of the Holy Spirit and time spent with God can one see this. Scripture is only words and mans writing when seen thru human eyes..but when one invites the Holy Spirit in to help him/her see the scriputures become alive and IMHO, the Bible doesnt contradict itself.
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Old 11-05-2007, 09:30 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
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Originally Posted by arguy1973
Quote:
Scripture is only words and mans writing when seen thru human eyes..but when one invites the Holy Spirit in to help him/her see the scriputures become alive
True, but this is also why I find scripture only as real as a recipe book. Having faith comes with action thus experience and not just (book) study.
I mean you cannot become a culinary chef from only reading recipes from a recipe book; you have to be able to prepare and cook a meal in order to create your own recipes.
So in order to see which recipe is the best you have to be able to prepare them both and then let your taste decide.
So ultimately it is reality (the tasting of a recipe) which decides which recipe is the better and not just abstract theory.
And I have no problem with choosing my experience over scripture whenever they contradict each other.
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Old 11-05-2007, 09:43 AM
 
Location: ARK-KIN-SAW
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tricky D View Post
Originally Posted by arguy1973 True, but this is also why I find scripture only as real as a recipe book. Having faith comes with action thus experience and not just (book) study.
I mean you cannot become a culinary chef from only reading recipes from a recipe book; you have to be able to prepare and cook a meal in order to create your own recipes.
So in order to see which recipe is the best you have to be able to prepare them both and then let your taste decide.
So ultimately it is reality (the tasting of a recipe) which decides which recipe is the better and not just abstract theory.
And I have no problem with choosing my experience over scripture whenever they contradict each other.
But what if your experience and scripture dont contradict one another?
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Old 11-05-2007, 09:55 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,779,109 times
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Originally Posted by arguy1973
Quote:
But what if your experience and scripture dont contradict one another?
Obviously there would be no problem.
But what I consider true for me does not necessarily have to be true for everyone else.
I mean it certainly is true that I'm not insecure because I know myself, but this does not automatically mean that everyone will become secure by knowing themselves.
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