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and not surprising, despite the Muslims who answered yes, currently as of this posting
Pleroo .... no rebuttals
Heartsong .... no rebuttals
ahigherway ..... no rebuttals
sparrow ..... no rebuttals
pcamps .... no rebuttals
Jerwade .... no rebuttals
mysticphd .... no rebuttals
matthew 4:4 .... no rebuttals
troutdude ..... no rebuttals
steeldragon .... no rebuttals
rodgertutt ..... no rebuttals
jhorton ..... no rebuttals
ohzone .... no rebuttals
which tells me that it's not about anything more than UR theology being in opposition to God's Word the Bible, Jesus and those who repeat what God's Word and Jesus said.
As Jesus said:
" If a house is divided against itself, that house cannot stand.
Andif Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand;"
in other words, there is an simple explanation why it is the UR theology only finds it's way only to oppose the subject of hell in the Christian Forum but not in Muslim forum (who claims that hell for Muslims is much like the hell for RC) because it's in the Qur'an and the Prophet Mohammed spoke about it.
That explains why you do not oppose them in regards to hell doctrines.
If an Eternal tormentor, regardless of which camp, set a half glass of water in front of me.
And asked if I were an optimist (believer) or pessimist (non-believer) of hell doctrines.
What do you think the outcome would be?
"I would drink the water and tell them that their dilemma is solved."
Separation exists only in the minds of men who are concerned with what’s in the cup.
Rather than, that which comes out of it!
Love never fails, but is at variance with pride. And the house of adversity is crumbling.
Hi twin,
Love - Def. - See: 1 Corinthians 13
Love - Def. - See: Jesus hanging on the cross saying "Father FORGIVE them..." and contrast that with God (who IS love) and the view that God (who IS love) would throw sentient beings into a never-ending state of torture/torment/pain/suffering.
And you cannot see the contradiction and hypocrisy? I feel that it is rather nonsensical that you say you do not see the contradiction and hypocrisy in that.
Either a person believes that everything that Jesus spoke is the truth or not. What I see is that such conclusions as "contradiction and hypocrisy" are accusations that will not go unheeded when forced to give an account.
And contrary to UR popular belief, giving of account of oneself does not mean you hold or win the superior position to the conversation.
John 3:36 ... is not hypocrisy Matthew 25:30 ... is not hypocrisy
Jesus speaking: “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? " ... is not hypocrisy
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow.
Originally Posted by twin.spin When the correct audience is present, something which you seem wantonly oblivious about when Jesus spoke to certain audiences.... audiences like those on the left vs those on the right (Matthew 25:31-46)
You're going to have to explain that one a bit better.
[1] You treat people differently when it comes to sharing the message of love and mercy?
[2] Why would you, when you are commanded to "Love your neighbor as yourself"? [3] What possible reason would you have to NOT speak of LOVE and MERCY?
I am sure that we can both agree that it is LOVE (remember God is love) that transforms, reconciles and renews, yes?
I altered your post to numbering the questions to match the appropriate answers
[A1] yes [A2] the immediate circumstances of the people involved along with the timing of what is spoken [A3] ... A2 has a large bearing on A3 as to the possible reason which for being truthful must be spoken for the sake of the hearer however unpleasant it maybe.
Please... don't bring up about the stupidity of Westboro.
Jesus said that he gives peace not like the world gives.
The world gives humanistic \ hollow \ non-specific peace. Such peace is meaningless clanging.
Notice the different mind of Christ when it comes to the topic of death between the believer vs the unbeliever:
believers of Jesus heard: “I am the resurrection and the life.
The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
and whoever lives by believing in me will never die."
believers of Jesus heard him say about unbelievers who bury another unbeliever:
“Let the dead bury their own dead,
but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”
It's a fornication of the truth to let "the dead [who] bury their own dead" presume that an unbeliever will have the same reward as "the one who believes in me [ i.e. Jesus]"
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow.
What do you think the point of Jesus hanging on the cross was...? To prove that judgment, wrath and LAWS are what HOLD the POWER? Think about it.
Twin, Jesus pointed the way to the Father. (Again, it cannot be repeated enough: God IS Love.)
Father forgive them. Twin, do you believe that God DID forgive them as Jesus asked..???
And when Jesus prayed for an alternative way in the Garden of Gethsemane, DID God as Jesus asked..???
So there is NO reason to automatically conclude that God DID... other than self imposed "yes" to fit a forced conclusion.
The truth still remains that:
Hebrews 11:6And without faith it is impossible to please God,
John 3:36but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow.
Unglued? Nope. I'm feeling peaceful. They're just questions.
Yes, they are difficult questions for someone with your views to think about and ponder.
And that was my point. Those types of questions need to be confronted. Will you confront them and answer them instead of projecting emotions onto others?
Those questions are not difficult to answer.
The family structure as we know it no longer has any relevancy. Only the believers are "brothers and sisters".. all of my past family line who believed in Jesus will be either a brother or sister to me. There is no more husband\wife relationships .... [grand] parents\child relationships etc., only brother and sister and Jesus will be my brother while at the same time also be God.
So in short, your questions are simply irrelevant to the upcoming reality.
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow.
Quote:
Originally Posted by .sparrow.
How do you go about comforting the loved ones of an unbeliever who has passed away? Let me guess.."well only God can judge" thereby giving them some sort of temporary hope that maybe, just maybe.... God might have mercy or maybe just mabye... they somehow "accepted Christ" at the last nanosecond. Or will you be honest with WHAT YOU BELIEVE and tell them that their loved one is in hell and they'll never see them again? IS THIS the good news that will be great joy to ALL people, twin?
Originally Posted by twin.spin Depends on whom the surviving loved ones are (spiritually speaking).
Please explain what you mean.
Hopefully above explained it
Last edited by twin.spin; 05-10-2013 at 12:06 PM..
So you accuse universalists, of not rebuking Muslims for their believe in hell?
To begin with, Muslims do not teach eternal damnation in the name of God and Christ but in the name of their god Allah and and the so called prophet Mohammed, thats a huge difference.
Secondly, we discussed Muslim hell in this section of the forum where I called to attention, that also Muslims differ in opinion, but it is not up to us to discuss Muslim theology. I think it would be naive to believe we could convert any Muslims, you would not appreciate also if Muslims would interfere in our discussions I suppose. Why would we even read there, so whats your point?
You don't go in the Judaism section either and rebuke them for not believing in eternal damnation.
Maybe I make the attempt and try to discuss with them.
Did you see your name on the list ... or are you disappointed that you were left out?
Last edited by twin.spin; 05-10-2013 at 12:38 PM..
Either a person believes that everything that Jesus spoke is the truth or not. What I see is that such conclusions as "contradiction and hypocrisy" are accusations that will not go unheeded when forced to give an account.
And contrary to UR popular belief, giving of account of oneself does not mean you hold or win the superior position to the conversation.
John 3:36 ... is not hypocrisy Matthew 25:30 ... is not hypocrisy
Jesus speaking: “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? " ... is not hypocrisy
What Jesus said, and what you "think" he means, are not necessarily the same thing. If you think I'm wrong, then describe in your own words what the "mansions in heaven" are that he mentioned. After all, if you understand "mansion," then I'm sure you can describe how big they are, what the look like, how many floors they have, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
I altered your post to numbering the questions to match the appropriate answers
[A1] yes [A2] the immediate circumstances of the people involved along with the timing of what is spoken [A3] ... A2 has a large bearing on A3 as to the possible reason which for being truthful must be spoken for the sake of the hearer however unpleasant it maybe.
Please... don't bring up about the stupidity of Westboro.
Jesus said that he gives peace not like the world gives.
The world gives humanistic \ hollow \ non-specific peace. Such peace is meaningless clanging.
Obama's "peace" is an example of the false peace that Jesus spoke of. Obama was awarded the Nobel peace prize, yet he has ordered the deaths of thousands, if not millions around the globe.
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin
Notice the different mind of Christ when it comes to the topic of death between the believer vs the unbeliever:
believers of Jesus heard: “I am the resurrection and the life.
The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;
and whoever lives by believing in me will never die."
believers of Jesus heard him say about unbelievers who bury another unbeliever:
“Let the dead bury their own dead,
but you go and proclaim the kingdom of God.â€
It's a fornication of the truth to let "the dead [who] bury their own dead" presume that an unbeliever will have the same reward as "the one who believes in me [ i.e. Jesus]"
And when Jesus prayed for an alternative way in the Garden of Gethsemane, DID God as Jesus asked..???
So there is NO reason to automatically conclude that God DID... other than self imposed "yes" to fit a forced conclusion.
The truth still remains that:
Hebrews 11:6And without faith it is impossible to please God,
John 3:36but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.
Those questions are not difficult to answer.
The family structure as we know it no longer has any relevancy. Only the believers are "brothers and sisters".. all of my past family line who believed in Jesus will be either a brother or sister to me. There is no more husband\wife relationships .... [grand] parents\child relationships etc., only brother and sister and Jesus will be my brother while at the same time also be God.
So in short, your questions are simply irrelevant to the upcoming reality.
The important thing is that you're convinced of your own "upcoming reality."
I'm a simple man, but I think you are punished not for your sins but by them -I'm not a Church going Christian but my vision of hell would be that in the last moments of your life you'd know that you'd wasted your life, done all the wrong things and couldn't go back and put any of it right, and a part of me always fears that, and motivates me to be the best human being I can be, and do the right thing whenever I have that choice.
I'm a simple man, but I think you are punished not for your sins but by them -I'm not a Church going Christian but my vision of hell would be that in the last moments of your life you'd know that you'd wasted your life, done all the wrong things and couldn't go back and put any of it right, and a part of me always fears that, and motivates me to be the best human being I can be, and do the right thing whenever I have that choice.
Hi Dave,
I think it's both. In the sense that, I think on one hand, our "goodness" is what God gives to us when we trust in and rely on Him for everything, every day.
At the same time, I think we do indeed have a responsibility to do what is good in our actions towards others. Too often people are led to believe that believing in God is sufficient, that what we do to others doesn't really matter. But it does. Love is the highest calling of all.
So you accuse universalists, of not rebuking Muslims for their believe in hell?
To begin with, Muslims do not teach eternal damnation in the name of God and Christ but in the name of their god Allah and and the so called prophet Mohammed, thats a huge difference.
Secondly, we discussed Muslim hell in this section of the forum where I called to attention, that also Muslims differ in opinion, but it is not up to us to discuss Muslim theology.
"Hell" to Muslims is supposedly similar to the "hell" of Roman Catholics ... so believes the resident Muslim Woodrow LI... who btw does not get the howls when he posts in this theology forum from the usual crowd.
Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM
I think it would be naive to believe we could convert any Muslims, you would not appreciate also if Muslims would interfere in our discussions I suppose. Why would we even read there, so whats your point?
You don't go in the Judaism section either and rebuke them for not believing in eternal damnation.
Maybe I make the attempt and try to discuss with them.
Apparently you haven't thought this through .... try telling that to the UR'er.
That is what I think what they mean when they say what Jesus came to save us from.
I'm going to have to wait in line until insistent Muslims \ athesists \ Baal worshipers \ Hindu's \ Judaism \ anti Trinitarian forsake what they believe and all bow the knee in belief.
I can't imagine how many "ages" it's going to take for a person who is expecting 70 virgins to get over their disappointment after shouting "Allah Kabar" when blowing themselves up.
What Jesus said, and what you "think" he means, are not necessarily the same thing. If you think I'm wrong, then describe in your own words what the "mansions in heaven" are that he mentioned. After all, if you understand "mansion," then I'm sure you can describe how big they are, what the look like, how many floors they have, etc.
Obama's "peace" is an example of the false peace that Jesus spoke of. Obama was awarded the Nobel peace prize, yet he has ordered the deaths of thousands, if not millions around the globe.
The important thing is that you're convinced of your own "upcoming reality."
Peace.
brian
I don't know what you're talking about since it wasn't written in response to anything you had said.
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