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Old 05-09-2013, 07:23 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Irenaeus (130-200 A.D.)

Against Heresies Book 1, Ch. 10.1 Unity of the Faith of the Church throughout the Whole World.

1. The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: ... to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send “spiritual wickednesses,”2789 and 331 the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; [Bolding mine]

2. As I have already observed, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although scattered throughout the whole world, yet, as if occupying but one house, carefully preserves it.

ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library


Tertullian (160-225 A.D.)

The Prescription Against Heretics; CHAP. XIII.--SUMMARY OF THE CREED, OR RULE OF FAITH. NO QUESTIONS EVER RAISED ABOUT IT BY BELIEVERS. HERETICS ENCOURAGE AND pERPETUATE THOUGHT INDEPENDENT OF CHRIST'S TEACHING.

... He sat at the right hand of the Father; sent instead of Himself the Power of the Holy Ghost to lead such as believe; will come with glory to take the saints to the enjoyment of everlasting life and of the heavenly promises, and to condemn the wicked to everlasting fire, after the resurrection of both these classes shall have happened, together with the restoration of their flesh. This rule, as it will be proved, was taught by Christ, and raises amongst ourselves no other questions than those which heresies introduce, and which make men heretics. [Bolding mine]

Tertullian (Roberts-Donaldson)



Tertullian Apology CHAP. XVIII

...these have further set before us the proofs He has given of His majesty in H judgments by floods and fires, the rules appointed by Him for securing His favour, as well as the retribution in store for the ignoring, forsaking and keeping them, as being about at the end of all to adjudge His worshippers to everlasting life, and the wicked to the doom of fire at once without ending and without break, raising up again all the dead from the beginning, reforming and renewing them with the object of awarding either recompense.[Bolding mine]
Tertullian (Roberts-Donaldson)

Both Irenaeus and Tertullian say that the early church [2nd century] believed that the wicked are condemned to everlasting fire.


As for the apostle Paul;
2 Thess. 1:8 dealing out retribution to those who do not know God and to those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9] These will pay the penalty of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
Irenaeus is considered to have been an annihilationist but some claim him even to have been an universalist, I think one must be familiar with his entire writings to judge to which view he hold. One quote does not suffice. When Irenaus speaks about "everlasting fire", he likely used the Biblical expression "pyr aionios", which also Origen used, the later did not understand it as endless.

Deprived of continuance: Irenaeus the conditionalist | Rethinking Hell

Concerning Tertullian, universalists are aware of his influence, and that maybe he established the doctrine of everlasting torment, at least in the Latin speaking church.

Quote:
According to Froom, "it was Tertullian who first affirmed that torments of the lost will be co-equal and co-exist with the happiness of the saved." (Ibid., vol. 1, p. 950.)

Tertullian's propositions needed other modifications: "He [Tertullian] confessedly altered the sense of Scripture and the meaning of words, so as to interpret 'death' as eternal misery and 'destruction' and 'consume' as pain and anguish. 'Hell' became perpetually dying, but never dead" (Ibid., vol. 1, p. 951).

Without hesitation, Tertullian referred directly to Plato in his writings. Plato's primary theme, "every soul is immortal," became Tertullian's unwavering platform (Tertullian, On the Resurrection, chap.3, quoted in ANF, vol.3, p. 547).

These church fathers followed suit by including Tertullian's propositions in their public preaching and writing: Minucius Felix, Cyprian of Carthage, Ambrose of Milan, John Chryosostom and Jerome (translator of the Bible into the Latin Vulgate).

No Attempt to Support With Scripture
Did they follow blindly? Were these leaders naive? Dr. Froom observes: "It is to be particularly noted that all Christian Fathers who use this 'immortal soul' phrase or thought were not only familiar with but likewise in accord with this position in the writing of Plato. And it is also to be observed that none of such early Christian writers ever sought for support for this doctrine by primary appeal to Scripture, but had recourse instead to arguments similar to those used by Plato" (Dr. LeRoy E. Froom, Conditionalist Faith of Our Fathers [1965], vol. 1, p. 954).
Ancients Beliefs about Hell | Hell Truth

Last edited by svenM; 05-09-2013 at 07:34 AM..
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Old 05-09-2013, 07:23 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
That would be true, if God had no desire to commune (dialogue) with us humans.

But the truth is, that He does talk with us. He does use reason and mercy. People are blinded by the wicked one and they cannot be set free until God sets them free. He knows this, and He knows how to draw men to Himself. No man will come to God unless they are drawn by Him. It's just the way we were made.

The problem is this: many of us Christians forget that God drew us. We want to take merit for our salvation, and we think we did something to obtain salvation, that other people need to do. And we forget that we are no different than other men, blind in our ways until HE overshadows us.

God showed us in Jesus Christ, that He makes exceptions. He makes the Law, and He can also break the Law if He chooses. He answers to no one.


Blessings,
brian
I suppose you're including yourself in that last sentence???

That's why verses such as Matthew 25:30-46 offend certain folks .... because when all said and done (46) all the yea buts weren't listened to.
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Old 05-09-2013, 07:40 AM
 
Location: Italy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
I suppose you're including yourself in that last sentence???

That's why verses such as Matthew 25:30-46 offend certain folks .... because when all said and done (46) all the yea buts weren't listened to.
Of course it includes me.

That doesn't mean that God is a failure. Or that God is unreasonable. Even nature itself shows us that God is a reasonable God.

Take another look at the early church. They weren't warning anyone about hell. Were they negligent?


Peace.
brian
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Old 05-09-2013, 07:54 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Of course it includes me.

That doesn't mean that God is a failure. Or that God is unreasonable. Even nature itself shows us that God is a reasonable God.

Take another look at the early church. They weren't warning anyone about hell. Were they negligent?

Peace.
brian
This is not totally correct, depending on what you understand by early Church.
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:20 AM
 
Location: Italy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by svenM View Post
This is not totally correct, depending on what you understand by early Church.
Without getting into debateable external texts, we can look at the Book of Acts and see that the church did not preach hellfire and brimstone. And Paul didn't preach it in his letters, either.


Peace.
brian
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:45 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Originally Posted by .sparrow. View Post
Since you are one who actually believes in hell, would you like it if your loved ones were cast in some never ending state of suffering and torment?
[1] I would not like for anybody to go to hell, but me not liking doesn't change what Jesus said will happen when a person rejects Him. And just because you do not like it means that it will change what Jesus said about those who reject him.

[2] Since God said that it won't, maybe you'd ought to trust what he promised rather than trusting in the world of sparrow
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:48 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Without getting into debateable external texts, we can look at the Book of Acts and see that the church did not preach hellfire and brimstone. And Paul didn't preach it in his letters, either.


Peace.
brian
Yea right ... according to whom, Dorthy and her ruby slippers?
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Old 05-09-2013, 08:54 AM
 
Location: Germany
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway View Post
Without getting into debateable external texts, we can look at the Book of Acts and see that the church did not preach hellfire and brimstone. And Paul didn't preach it in his letters, either.


Peace.
brian
When you understand this as early church then I agree with you; but early apocryphal writings such as 4 Esdras or the Apocalypse of Peter contain the concept, also some of the early church writers spoke about fire and doom, I am not able to judge to which view they hold though, their writings possibly are translated as poorly in reference to future jugdement as some Biblical texts.

E.g. when Irenaeus says:

Quote:
It is the Father of all who imparts continuance for ever and ever on those who are saved … [who] shall receive also length of days for ever and ever. But he who shall reject it … deprives himself of [the privilege of] continuance for ever and ever … shall justly not receive from Him length of days for ever and ever.
Irenaeus might have said, they will not receive length of days for ages of ages and thereby meant that they will not see life for a long time; I do not know if he did.

I think unless one is familiar with the entire writings of a church father, preferably in the original Greek, it is hard if not impossible to judge to which view he adhered, this might explain why church fathers, just as Irenaeus, are cited in support for everlasting torment, annihiationism and universalism.

Since Paul warned of false teachers already in his days, I think it is not worth the effort to dwell to deep on the so called church fathers.
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Old 05-09-2013, 10:09 AM
 
5,366 posts, read 4,131,353 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
[1] I would not like for anybody to go to hell, but me not liking doesn't change what Jesus said will happen when a person rejects Him. And just because you do not like it means that it will change what Jesus said about those who reject him.

And if your child ends up in hell...twin, what then?
will you keep loving your child?
Or will God do a mind-erase so you won't have to think about your child in hell?
Or will you believe that your child got what he or she deserved?

How do you go about comforting the loved ones of an unbeliever who has passed away? Let me guess.."well only God can judge" thereby giving them some sort of temporary hope that maybe, just maybe.... God might have mercy or maybe just mabye... they somehow "accepted Christ" at the last nanosecond. Or will you be honest with WHAT YOU BELIEVE and tell them that their loved one is in hell and they'll never see them again? IS THIS the good news that will be great joy to ALL people, twin?

The belief that God (who IS love) created some demonic hell, a place of neverending torment, this belief is nothing but a huge ball of contradiction and hypocrisy and I think you (and others) know it. Some of you like to talk of WRATH and JUDGEMENT and PUNISHMENT! When do you speak of LOVE and MERCY? When do you speak of the POWER of LOVE to reconcile and transform and RENEW?

The POWER of God is not in endless tormenting punishment. (what a sick, sick thought.) The POWER of God is not snuffing out someone like a cigarette (what a lame, impotent, DEFEATIST thought.) The POWER of GOD is in WHAT HE IS: LOVE. LOVE that transforms. Love that RECONCILES. LOVE that changes a person from within (which is what will happen to us all.) LOVE THAT RENEWS.
AS in ADAM, ALL Die. So in CHRIST, Shall ALL be made ALIVE.

When you have seen firsthand how the power of love transforms... then you become a BELIEVER.
Until then, some will keep believing in a monster hypcritical sociopathic psychopathic version of God, which is the product of their darkened carnal minds. It is our carnality that tells us "Evil is GOOD and Good is EVIL."
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Old 05-09-2013, 10:09 AM
 
Location: Italy
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
Yea right ... according to whom, Dorthy and her ruby slippers?
I don't know what Bible you read, but mine doesn't have any examples of the early church preaching hellfire and eternal punishment to the people.

So why do preachers preach things that are not scriptural? If they say they are part of the church, shouldn't they follow the footsteps of those who have gone before? Paul wrote plainly, "be a follower of me."

So when did Paul preach hellfire to the people?


Peace.
brian
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