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Old 11-10-2007, 10:24 AM
 
Location: Atlanta, GA
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Here is something that's kind of "out there" in my own struggles with Free Will vs. predestination (Calvinism). I like to think that one way that we can get a glimpse into the mind of God is through his creation, namely, physics - the fundamental structure of the universe. I think we can see allusions to God's relationship to His creation throughout the Bible - for example the Bible alludes to the fact that God literally holds the universe together (I'm drawing a blank on the verse) - to me, this is physics - I like to think of this as a reference to the "strong force," the force that holds atoms together (or something like that, I'm not a physicist). When you look at our current understanding of physics, there are two sets of explanation that seem to apply: 1) classical physics, such as the law of gravity, etc. which allows us to observe and predict actions in the universe, such as the earth going around the sun, etc., and 2) quantum physics in relation to suatomic particles, which seems to be random and unpredictible, and doesn't seem to follow any of the established laws of physics. On the large scale level (e.g. planets, stars, whole objects) it seems that God has set things up in a predictible, organized, preordained manner, so much so that even the ancient Aztecs could calculate and predict celestial events. On the small scale (subatomic particles) God's creation seems to be chaotic and unpredictible, even random, although, granted, this may only be an appearance due to current limitations of science. Perhaps this dichotomy applies to humans as well, in that we might be on some unfathomable continuum between free will and predetermination. I know that this post is a little [i]out there[i], but I really like to apply the study of science to my understanding of faith, which I believe are very compatible.
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Old 11-10-2007, 10:36 AM
 
Location: Maryland
3,540 posts, read 6,070,056 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by OhioNative View Post
Here is something that's kind of "out there" in my own struggles with Free Will vs. predestination (Calvinism). I like to think that one way that we can get a glimpse into the mind of God is through his creation, namely, physics - the fundamental structure of the universe. I think we can see allusions to God's relationship to His creation throughout the Bible - for example the Bible alludes to the fact that God literally holds the universe together (I'm drawing a blank on the verse) - to me, this is physics - I like to think of this as a reference to the "strong force," the force that holds atoms together (or something like that, I'm not a physicist). When you look at our current understanding of physics, there are two sets of explanation that seem to apply: 1) classical physics, such as the law of gravity, etc. which allows us to observe and predict actions in the universe, such as the earth going around the sun, etc., and 2) quantum physics in relation to suatomic particles, which seems to be random and unpredictible, and doesn't seem to follow any of the established laws of physics. On the large scale level (e.g. planets, stars, whole objects) it seems that God has set things up in a predictible, organized, preordained manner, so much so that even the ancient Aztecs could calculate and predict celestial events. On the small scale (subatomic particles) God's creation seems to be chaotic and unpredictible, even random, although, granted, this may only be an appearance due to current limitations of science. Perhaps this dichotomy applies to humans as well, in that we might be on some unfathomable continuum between free will and predetermination. I know that this post is a little [i]out there[i], but I really like to apply the study of science to my understanding of faith, which I believe are very compatible.
I couldn't agree with you more.
You might want to check out some of the writings of the Jesuit
Pierre Teilhard de Chardin (1881-1955). He was forbidden to publish by the Vatican during his lifetime. After his death he has become very influential as a mystic with a holistic vision of contemporary spirituality.
He is a hard read. Better sipped than gulped if you know what I mean.
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Old 11-10-2007, 11:10 AM
 
Location: NC
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And love requires free will, without free will love itself becomes obsolete.
Tricky D., God is love, right? How can He become obsolete if we do not have free will? God will be all in all (love will be all in all) and so it is His will being accomplished in us. This is the glory and power of love. We will love Him willingly because of His love for us.. This is the work of God. When God created man, He said, "Let us make man in our image." He did not ask our permission, right? All will be done willingly, but I don't believe that it will be because of our own free will. It will be because of His will. I believe that even our desire to choose Him is the work of Him. All is out of Him. (1 Corinthians 8:6)I love because He first loved... right? I choose Him because He first chose me. I can only love Him willingly because He set me free from the domain of darkness and sin. His power is working in me. I would not even know how to love Him without Him. Thanks for sharing. I always appreciate your comments and feedback.

What does this mean to you, He works all things according to the counsel of His will? Is this wrong? I think that many Christians do not approve of this, I'm not saying this to you in particular God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-10-2007 at 12:33 PM..
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Old 11-10-2007, 11:19 AM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 14,114,430 times
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Quote:
Here is something that's kind of "out there" in my own struggles with Free Will vs. predestination (Calvinism). I like to think that one way that we can get a glimpse into the mind of God is through his creation, namely, physics - the fundamental structure of the universe. I think we can see allusions to God's relationship to His creation throughout the Bible - for example the Bible alludes to the fact that God literally holds the universe together (I'm drawing a blank on the verse) - to me, this is physics - I like to think of this as a reference to the "strong force," the force that holds atoms together (or something like that, I'm not a physicist). When you look at our current understanding of physics, there are two sets of explanation that seem to apply: 1) classical physics, such as the law of gravity, etc. which allows us to observe and predict actions in the universe, such as the earth going around the sun, etc., and 2) quantum physics in relation to suatomic particles, which seems to be random and unpredictible, and doesn't seem to follow any of the established laws of physics. On the large scale level (e.g. planets, stars, whole objects) it seems that God has set things up in a predictible, organized, preordained manner, so much so that even the ancient Aztecs could calculate and predict celestial events. On the small scale (subatomic particles) God's creation seems to be chaotic and unpredictible, even random, although, granted, this may only be an appearance due to current limitations of science. Perhaps this dichotomy applies to humans as well, in that we might be on some unfathomable continuum between free will and predetermination. I know that this post is a little [i]out there[i], but I really like to apply the study of science to my understanding of faith, which I believe are very compatible
Is it Colossians 1:16-17

"For by (through) Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities-all things have been created by/through Him and for Him. And He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together (or endure)"?

God bless.
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Old 11-10-2007, 11:28 AM
 
Location: NC
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Maybe we have different definitions of free will Just to share, if God is described as a Potter and we as clay, this means that He is doing the molding and shaping. Is this wrong? Is clay able to resist what the Potter intends for it to be? It may seem like we have free will, that all of our choices are coming entirely from our own free will. But the Potter is doing His work on His vessel.

If we can't see all of the operations of God moving in His creation, does this mean that it isn't so? I think about the story of Joseph and His brothers. They did him wrong but God intended it for good. What they did of their own "free will" God intended for good (they were acting out of jealousy) and so then, did they really do this of their own free will or was this the plan of God all along? They didn't see this at the time, but Joseph revealed this to them. (Genesis 45) God bless.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-10-2007 at 01:02 PM.. Reason: addition
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Old 11-10-2007, 09:18 PM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,778,358 times
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Originally Posted by ShanaBrown
Quote:
Tricky D., God is love, right? How can He become obsolete if we do not have free will?
Without free will (or the option to leave) there is no difference between love or rape.
In Belgium there is this paedophile called Marc Dutroux, who had kidnapped several young girls and locked them up in an underground dungeon. Most of his victims ended up dead because he kept abusing them and they had no means of escape.
The young girls had no where to go and no means of escape.
Would you call this love?

The analogy between of a potter and clay and God and humanity is all wrong. Dutroux did not give his victims any options, so Dutroux can be seen as the potter who viewed his victims as nothing more than inanimate pieces of clay.
People are not inanimate objects, because they have a will.
Insisting that humans do not have free will is simply wrong, because then you are saying that Marc Dutroux did nothing wrong.

Quote:
Marc Dutroux (born 6 November 1956 in Brussels) is a Belgian criminal, convicted of having, in 1995 and 1996, kidnapped, tortured and sexually abused six girls, ranging in age from 8 to 19, four of whom he murdered.
Marc Dutroux - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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Old 11-11-2007, 01:26 AM
 
Location: NC
11,918 posts, read 14,114,430 times
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Quote:
Tricky D., God is love, right? How can He become obsolete if we do not have free will?
Quote:
Without free will (or the option to leave) there is no difference between love or rape.
In Belgium there is this paedophile called Marc Dutroux, who had kidnapped several young girls and locked them up in an underground dungeon. Most of his victims ended up dead because he kept abusing them and they had no means of escape.
The young girls had no where to go and no means of escape.
Would you call this love?

Hi Tricky D., God is not Marc Dutroux He is Father and He is our Creator. He made us and He has every right over us because we are His creatures. And He is described as love. Agape love does what is best for others and Marc Dutroux did not show agape love by raping these girls. Rape does not care. It hurts, destroys, demeans, humiliates, destroys, but the love of God is good. It is good for us. God is love, not rape. There is a tremendous difference. The scriptures say that those who are lost are deceived, blind, enslaved to sin and Jesus came to destroy the works of Satan. Only in Jesus is there freedom. God gave us the powor to reject Him but only for a season and this does not mean that we are free. Jesus said that He will draw all men to Himself and all things, including us, belong to Him. God is making us into His image, creatures who rightfully belong to Him. We will willingly serve and love Him, because He will be able to convince all. All eyes will be opened to the truth because the true light which enlightens every man has come into the world.





Quote:
The analogy between of a potter and clay and God and humanity is all wrong. Dutroux did not give his victims any options, so Dutroux can be seen as the potter who viewed his victims as nothing more than inanimate pieces of clay.
This analogy comes straight from the scriptures. It is not something that I made up and I believe the scriptures and I believe that God has every right over His creatures to do what He wants. I trust Him because He is good and He does what is best for us.


"Beloved let us love one another, for love is of God and everyone who loves, knows God and is born of God, for He who does not love, does not know love, for God is love...." 1 John 4:7-9



"What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion. For it is not of him that wlls nor of him who runs, but of God, who shows mercy. For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "Even for this purpose I have raised you up that I might show my power in you, and that My name might be declared in all the earth." Therefore He has mercy on whom He will, and whom He wills, He hardens. Nay but, O man, who are you that replies against God? Shall the thing formed [that’s us] say to Him that formed it, [that’s GOD] Why have You made me thus? Has not the Potter [GOD] power over the clay [man], of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?" Rom. 9:14-21



Quote:
People are not inanimate objects, because they have a will.
Insisting that humans do not have free will is simply wrong, because then you are saying that Marc Dutroux did nothing wrong.
I never said that we don't have a will. Marc Dutroux has a will and he did a lot of wrong. His will is not free because he is enslaved to sin and he is blind and lost. He is also clay in the hands of God. Just sharing:

"
Quote:
Christ alone can lead man out of captivity to Satan and his own self-centered will, into the captivity of God's redemptive will. Human free will without Christ is always self will, and as such, is a helpless captive which could never, without the intervening will power of God, will itself unto salvation. It is bound to serve and obey only self and sin - Rom.6:16. Without the empowering action of the Spirit of God, nothing begins-Gen.1:1.

We are all fashioned from "clay of the same lump." Rom.9:21. "Behold, as the clay is in the Potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel." Isa.45:9.

Man's created will and all its finite attributes, functions, abilities, limitations and even its existence, was originally formed, planned and creatively designed by the mind of God Himself. Can the execution of man's own will, or the results of God's plans, ever in any way be outside of God's intimate governing influence and His always present omnipotent authority and dominion? Absolutely not! Never! In actual reality of operation, man's free will is free to be positively controlled by God. Men may often practice iniquity, "because it is in the power of their hand " (Mic.2:1) to do so. But who primarily gave him this power and ability, if only for a season? "
Ross McKay

Take care and God bless, Tricky D.

Last edited by ShanaBrown; 11-11-2007 at 02:18 AM.. Reason: typos
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Old 11-11-2007, 02:57 AM
 
Location: The Netherlands
8,567 posts, read 14,778,358 times
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Originally Posted by ShanaBrown
Quote:
Hi Tricky D., God is not Marc Dutroux
Shana, I know that Dutroux isn't God, but Dutroux eliminated every other option. Whenever you eliminate every other option, love can be destroyed.
The young girls became nothing but clay in Dutroux's hands, exactly like in your comparison of the potter and clay. Clay does not move on its own, it has to be moved. Exactly like all those imprisoned girls.

The 2 girls who survived the ordeal of being held captive for weeks are now adults, but unfortunately they have been so damaged that they it has been impossible for them to trust other people.
Or ever fall in love again.
Dutroux has destroyed them psychologically by showing them that it is possible to strip them of every other option, but flee into themselves. But even there they are not safe, because Dutroux sexually abused them repeatedly.
Dutroux has made their life nothing but a living hell and the only thing they do now is survive. Because no matter how old they will be, they will always be marked by this ordeal. And forgetting it will nearly be impossible.
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Old 11-11-2007, 06:32 AM
 
Location: NC
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Hi Tricky D., I understand what you are sharing about the 2 girls and I am very sorry for all that happened to them. What happened to them was horrific and I pray for their total healing. Just to share about clay again, I believe that we are living clay, dust - living by the Spirit of God. God has given us wills and I believe that God molds and shapes us in our experiences. He is molding and shaping but we are participating in the process. I hope that you can understand where I am coming from. Again, thank you again for sharing. God bless you.
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