The Reason I Am Kept From Fully Becoming A Participating Christian---help If You Can (Gospel, Epistles)

[Scamp]

Originally Posted by scorpioboy33

why doesn't God seek to save even Lucifer...honestly I hope I'm not coming off trite..these are real questions in my heart

Precisely because of the reasons I gave above. Lucifer sinned under the full revelation of the righteousness of the Lord. There remains no further understanding for him. He directly chose sin over God. He thought himself the equal of God and continues to strive against Him because he feels he still has the ability to circumvent God's law and achieve victory.

All through the Scriptures he sought to destroy the manifestation of God in the flesh. From the murder of Abel, the slaughter of innocents in trying to kill Moses, right up until Herod ordered the killing of all the young male children, satan has sought to thwart God's plan to crush the serpents head. When the Messiah was revealed, Satan foolishly incited the death of Jesus and thus brought about the method of justification for the saints.

Satan is beyond redemption. Christ's blood, wrought sinlessly in flesh, is to save those who are in the flesh. There is no further revelation or justification that could save him.

Don't feel your questions are unwelcome or unusual. Every question you've asked, I once asked myself. It is a sign you are thinking.

[scorpioboy33]

thanks scamp

[kaykay]

Originally Posted by scorpioboy33

I did email it to you...and thank you so much for your generosity and desire to help....I think maybe I've been led to this place...well that sounds silly but whatever I had the notion to use this forum to find answers

I will see that you get a copy. I also noticed that Dr. Boyd has recently written another book called something like The Problem of Evil: Is God Really to Blame? I haven't read that one, but while I don't agree with Greg Boyd on every theological point, I generally find his writing to be very insightful, evident that he has thought deeply about issues. Might be worth a look at that one too given your OP.

[ShanaBrown]

why doesn't God seek to save even Lucifer...honestly I hope I'm not coming off trite..these are real questions in my heart

I have often wondered what this verse means:

"For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fulness to dwell in Him and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross, through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven (or the heavens).

God bless.

[ShanaBrown]

In Ezekiel 28:14 God is referring to Lucifer as a seal of perfection so according to the Bible he was created perfect but pride sprung up in his heart as he coveted God's position

Hi, Christians differ in their understanding of this verse. Some believe that this verse refers to a real person and not Lucifer or satan and some even believe that it refers to Adam. One thing to note is that the word for "perfect" in this verse is translated as "blameless" in some translations in this passage. The word can mean blameless, complete, whole, without blemish but the same word is used to describe Noah in Genesis 6:9. Noah was described as blameless but was he without sin? He was described as a righteous man who walked with God but does this mean that he was without sin?

Where did the iniquity come from if this is referring to satan or Adam? If satan or Lucifer as many believed made a choice to disobey God due to pride, how did the pride develop if he was created perfect as many believe? And would a perfect creature make the wrong choice? Didn't God know what would happen when this creature was created? Just some thoughts. God bless.

[yhwhshalomjr]

Originally Posted by scorpioboy33

Hi Guys,
I'm new and I've joined with the goal of finding an answer to these two very pressing questions.
OK so apparently Jesus always existed..john one--word was god and word was with God....Anyway did that mean God always new we were going to sin and that Jesus was always going to have to die for our sins..if so that the whole adam and eve thing was already planned out no? Kind of a rigged test?

OK Second this is the real toughie for me. God create Satan the arch angel (whatever his Angel name was) anyway..Satan got envious and wanted to rule earth and he was jealous of Gods Power....If God created Satan than did he create Satan with ingrained Sin cause you either create something perfect or imperfect. There is no free choice element to this question because if you create something perfect it can't fail impossible...100% doesn't degrade so Satan would have the character flaw that would cause him to become jealous..Also he couldn't choose to be jealous cause jealousy shouldn't have existed if you follow me.....God had created everthing and everything should have been perfect....
I relize I'm going to get the "Free Choice" answers but trust me that doesn't make sense because like I said God would have to have created that flaw...


anyway please help if you can...thanks and hi I'm Bill

So if you found the answers that you are looking for, are you saying that these answers will be the deciding factor, in your choosing God and Christianity?
I don't understand everything either, who can? I just trust in and take God at His word. One thing I can tell you that He's real. Somethings can't be figured out and with me what difference does it make, because I've lived on both sides of the fence and I can't explain it in words, all i can say that I know for a fact that Jesus is real and the Holy Spirit is from experience. My .02 cents whether or not it will make sense to anyone. I've always been a skeptic in the past. but I guess I can say I've experienced some of the same things that people in the Bible have, and that's enough proof for me. I pray that you will find what you are seeking;
God Bless You

[debbee]

Originally Posted by ShanaBrown

Hi, Christians differ in their understanding of this verse. Some believe that this verse refers to a real person and not Lucifer or satan and some even believe that it refers to Adam. One thing to note is that the word for "perfect" in this verse is translated as "blameless" in some translations in this passage. The word can mean blameless, complete, whole, without blemish but the same word is used to describe Noah in Genesis 6:9. Noah was described as blameless but was he without sin? He was described as a righteous man who walked with God but does this mean that he was without sin?

Where did the iniquity come from if this is referring to satan or Adam? If satan or Lucifer as many believed made a choice to disobey God due to pride, how did the pride develop if he was created perfect as many believe? And would a perfect creature make the wrong choice? Didn't God know what would happen when this creature was created? Just some thoughts. God bless.

Since God is God and knows all things He knew what would happen but I believe freedom to choose is the cornerstone principle of God's government. Knowing this, if God had refused to create him, don't you think He would have been repudiating that principle of free choice? I believe iniquity originated with satan when he chose to make a devil of himself.

[gizmo980]

Merged with duplicate thread on general R&P... please only post on one forum at a time!

[Tricky D]

It seems that God only wants people in His kingdom who love Him and no one else, while Satan, Lucifer or the devil only wants free will.

If with love the bible means having no other choice, I prefer free will over this 'love'.
I agree with Milton:

Here at least we shall be free. . . Better to reign in Hell, than serve in Heaven.
John Milton, Paradise Lost
English poet (1608 - 1674)

I do not agree that free will automatically leads to being evil.
Just because most people believe that the road of the least resistance automatically ends up with being evil, doesn't mean that I will end up being evil to.

[ShanaBrown]

Since God is God and knows all things He knew what would happen but I believe freedom to choose is the cornerstone principle of God's government. Knowing this, if God had refused to create him, don't you think He would have been repudiating that principle of free choice? I believe iniquity originated with satan when he chose to make a devil of himself.

Hi, how could this have been free choice if God knew what would happen when He created satan, or lucifer, or Adam? I don’t believe that we have absolute free will. There are many scriptures which speak to God’s sovereignty as opposed to man’s free will. For example,


"Also we have obtained at inheritance having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will…“ Ephesians 1:11

"Yet you do not know what your life will be like tomorrow. You are just a vapor that appears for a little while and then vanishes away. Instead you ought to say, “If the Lord wills, we shall live and also do this or that..” James 4:14-15.


"9 For this is what the promise said, "About this time I will return and Sarah shall have a son." 10 And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, 11 though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad, in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call, 12 she was told, "The elder will serve the younger." 13 As it is written, "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
14 What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16 So it depends not upon man's will or exertion, but upon God's mercy. 17 For the scripture says to Pharaoh, "I have raised you up for the very purpose of showing my power in you, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth." 18 So then he has mercy upon whomever he wills, and he hardens the heart of whomever he wills. 19 You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?" 20 But who are you, a man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me thus?" 21 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for beauty and another for menial use? Romans 9: 10-21 (Revised standard)


Where did the iniquity come from if this is referring to satan or Adam? If satan or Lucifer as many believed made a choice to disobey God due to pride, how did the pride develop if he was created perfect as many believe? God bless.