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Old 05-15-2013, 10:52 AM
 
Location: USA
17,156 posts, read 11,306,202 times
Reputation: 2375

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
No, Finn, the trap you've fallen into is believing that any biblical criticism is rejection of the Bible. I'm trying to get people to see beyond the Bible. You are still concentrating on making people not only see the "picture window" from my previous post, but to pretend there are no spots of dust or flaws in the glass through which we must look. Furthermore, I get the impression that you are judging people on whether they see the glass as you do. What Christian existentialists have done is move beyond the Bible to a higher plane.

When I was saved at age 16, it was not from being shown anything from the Bible, it was from an appeal to my heart that God was seeking me, and made clear to me by another boy my same age who was an All-American high school football end. The Bible played no role in that salvation although my grandparents had spent time speaking of it to me in my younger years.

The Bible IS important---as a window into the heart of God---and it accomplishes that with flaws and imperfections despite the fact that it is NOT as great as the One who inspired it.

I've probably spoken before congregations a hundred times as a ministerial student in my youth and as a lay pastor as an adult. In all my sermons, preaching from the Word, I've perhaps had one or two accept Christ with literally dozens of rededications. But the most people I've ever led to Christ are when I spoke one on one with them, with no Bible in hand to thumb through and point out scriptures. While I was in the Marine Corps on Okinawa, I was riding with a buddy going somewhere on the Rock (our term for Okinawa) and he knew I was a Christian. Out of the blue, he said, "No one has ever told me about becoming a Christian." I pulled over to the side of the road and told him if he wanted a friend (not an accuser) for life he needed to invite Jesus Christ into his life. I had no Bible, although I probably referred to Scripture---I don't remember. God used IMPERFECT me, to help that young man find Him. God can use an IMPERFECT Bible (scientifically imperfect, sometimes factually imperfect but absolutely NOT spiritually imperfect) to help people see His own perfection.

In college (a Baptist related school) we had two Bible professors. The "conservative" dressed flamboyantly, smiled always, shook your hand by grasping it with both of his, and taught Sunday school lessons in his classes. The "liberal" dressed in dark suits, was quiet (except in the classroom) and demanded complete scholarship from his students.

Early on in his New Testament course (a required course at my college) he said, "I see at least eighteen of you are ministerial students. You are like old wineskins into which I am going to pour new wine. And some of you will split wide open." His teaching consisted of teaching litererary critcism of the Bible, the JEDP theory about four writers of Genesis, of how even some of the New Testament letters may have had two sources in their compilation. After two weeks I went to him and said, "Dr. *****, I don't believe 90% of what you're teaching but I'm going to learn it better than any other student in the class." His reply, "Well son, there's still hope for you then."

I did split wide open with some of his teachings. But like the pod of a flower something else grew. Not so much because of his teaching, but because of his personal testimony. A couple of years later, due to some financial hardship, I had spoken to a couple of fellow students about leaving college. My professor, Dr. *****, heard about it and called me to his office. He said, "I want you to stay in school. My brother-in-law has funded a small scholarship and I'm going to award it to you to help defray costs of your last two semesters in college."

So, I stayed. It wasn't until years later, after he was retired, that I learned 80% of the funding for that scholarship came from his own pocket. He wasn't a Christian because he was liberal or conservative. He was a Christian because he had a personal experience with Jesus Christ and he witnessed with his life. The fact that the Bible was written by more authors than our Sunday School classes attribute to it made it no less meaningful to him. The fact that the classroom next door was occupied by one of his close friends, a science professor that we all knew was a Christian "evolutionist," didn't make him better or worse, it made him one who was able to see the possibility of ANYONE finding God.

Unfortunately, inerrantists frequently limit who God may find to those who accept a view Bible as they do. Thereby they limit the limitless God. I believe that is anathema to the God who found me.
Wardendresden, thank you for all that you've shared on this thread. Your posts are true gems.
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Old 05-15-2013, 11:10 AM
 
Location: New England
37,336 posts, read 28,087,833 times
Reputation: 2741
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
He tries to associate Bible reades with everything negative, which will discourage people from reading it. It is a dishonest association IMO.

It's like saying "people who watch CNN News are ignorant fools". Would that encourage you to watch CNN? No, because no one wants to be seen as an ignorant fool.

Nah, the argument is anti-Bible propaganda, which we see here every day.

You probably don't even realize it, but you are the worst offender in this forum. No one here talks about sin and condemnation more that you, only you project it on others. Just saying.....you might want to tone it down a notch.
No Finn Jarber I refute your persistent talking up sin, judgment and
Condemnation, exposing it for what it is and the root of it,which is
Fear and insecurity, due to faith in the bible instead of Jesus Christ.
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Old 05-15-2013, 11:14 AM
 
Location: New England
37,336 posts, read 28,087,833 times
Reputation: 2741
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
There aren't too many people who think Bible is in error and read it anyway. Either way, if the Bible teaches obedience, mercy, and forgiveness, then a person who believes Bible as inerrant, would (by definition) believe those teachings to be true. That's just logic.
I read it daily and I am pretty sure the universalists do so even more
Than most who claim to be 100 bible believers. The likes of Eusebius
Trettep legomen shana brown have obviously spent hours upon
Hours studying scripture.
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Old 05-15-2013, 11:16 AM
 
Location: Florida
76,949 posts, read 47,272,488 times
Reputation: 14761
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
No Finn Jarber I refute your persistent talking up sin, judgment and
Condemnation, exposing it for what it is and the root of it,which is
Fear and insecurity, due to faith in the bible instead of Jesus Christ.
And yet, once again, you are the first to bring up sin and condemnation, and project it on others. That's exactly what I was talking about.

For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 05-15-2013 at 11:26 AM..
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Old 05-15-2013, 11:36 AM
 
Location: Florida
76,949 posts, read 47,272,488 times
Reputation: 14761
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Unfortunately, inerrantists frequently limit who God may find to those who accept a view Bible as they do. Thereby they limit the limitless God. I believe that is anathema to the God who found me.
Not true. The Bible encourages followers of Christ to reach out to everyone, even those who never even heard of the Bible. If you are a person who reads and believes those passages to be true (inerrant), then logically thinking your claim cannot be true.

Verdict: Your claim fails the test of logic.

Can you give me an example of a spiritial teaching which you have learned living "beyond the Bible on a higher plane" which cannot be found in the Bible?
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Old 05-15-2013, 11:44 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 12,432,209 times
Reputation: 1319
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
I read it daily and

[1] I am pretty sure the universalists do so even more
Than most who claim to be 100 bible believers.



[2] The likes of Eusebius Trettep legomen shana brown have obviously spent hours upon
Hours studying scripture.
[1] and you know this how .... something from the mind of Christ

[2] ... oh well, that surely calms any suspicions we might have about universalism, that it is not something that "God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie"
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Old 05-15-2013, 12:32 PM
 
Location: New England
37,336 posts, read 28,087,833 times
Reputation: 2741
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
[1] and you know this how .... something from the mind of Christ

[2] ... oh well, that surely calms any suspicions we might have about universalism, that it is not something that "God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie"
Their knowledge of the scripture is clear to all who are open minded. So to claim just because we do not believe 100% what you do, does not mean we do not read the scriptures. How is that we daily search the scriptures have been given a strong delusion and you haven't ?. At least by this you are acknowledging that you can deluded by reading the scripture, if the veil remains over your mind.

Last edited by pcamps; 05-15-2013 at 12:55 PM..
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Old 05-15-2013, 12:36 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
10,688 posts, read 7,656,145 times
Reputation: 4674
Default If you have no doubt, you have no faith

Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
You do see that this standard
Nobody's saying the bible is "in error"...but simply that it contains errors.
is the same pov that critiques have when they say:
the bible is not God's Word .... it simply that it contains God's word
And why put it on trail .... so as to make truth relative. By allowing oneself this freedom, a person becomes the arbitrator of God's word.

The two question that still come from skeptics still follow these mindsets: doubt and or relativism
  • "Did God really say...? " Satan
  • What is truth?” retorted Pilate
Twin, I've followed your posts on a number of threads. You appear to be of the mindset that people cannot have faith in God without accepting YOUR view of the Scriptures. The problem with "I have no doubt" about God, is that then you can have no faith. You DO have the Bible, and that to you is "evidence" of your faith.

Hebrews 11:1-2 NIV
Quote:
Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. This is what the ancients were commended for. By faith we understand that the universe was formed at God's command, so that what is seen was not made out of what was visible.
Mark 9:24 KJV
Quote:
And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.
How much do we have to believe to see results from God? The fact is that this father wasn't sure how much faith he had, whether he had enough to save his son. In desperation he cast all doubts on Jesus and in effect begs for mercy!! Why did Jesus grant this request? Did not the man say he had unbelief?

The magic words were "I believe", in spite of my doubts, "I believe". I have no Bible on which to depend for my faith. I have no church which supports me. All I have is doubt that I cast upon you, my Lord, in hope that you will have mercy based on the small part of me that believes.

The disciples were trying to heal based on their own power, with all the knowledge they had gained from Jesus, probably with his teaching from the Old Testament, but they failed. And Jesus rebuked them for their lack of faith. They had relied upon their "Bible" as it were, rather than their faith. Jesus did not rebuke them by saying "all things are possible to him that believeth MUCH." Jesus didn't rebuke his disciples for having "little faith." He rebuked them for being FAITHLESS.

Those who believe that faith must rely on the Bible, have no faith at all, because they are not sure of things "not seen." They have the Bible, which inerrantists hold to be the be all and end all.

Give me a man who believes with doubt. Give me a man who knows he is a sinner, that he will always be a sinner, but strives to live his life as God expects. A man who understands that God makes the rain to fall upon the just and the unjust. Many Christians see that latter example as a negative. They think of "rain" as punishment of both the just and the unjust. If you go to the beach you want sunshine, but the farmer may be crying for rain. But rain serves a useful purpose. It's just the opposite, God sends sunshine for those who are evil as well as those who are good. And rain falls upon the just and the unjust.

But Jesus began his talk about rain with these words, "Love your enemies, bless those that curse you, do good to those that hate you." Love, bless, do good---not just for your friends--but for your enemies as well. That's God's way, and when we follow it, we demonstrate that we are sons of the Father.

God wants us to BLESS others. When He blesses us it is not an individual blessing---it's for everyone who is around us. He blesses us with such abundance that we cannot help but share with others. His blessings are designed for their benefit (those people who hate us) as well as ours, for the goodness of God leads to repentance (Rom 2:4)

And that is what is so baffling to me. Because inerrantists spend so much time on condemning gays, abortionists, LIBERALS, (politics, for God's sake), that it makes me wonder about what kind of salvation experience they have really had. Shouldn't they instead be trying to demonstrate love and blessings, and the doing of good to those people?

As I previously quoted Mark Twain, an atheist, who actually understood the message of God with NO faith of his own:

"Kindness is the language the deaf can hear, and the blind can see."

Last edited by Wardendresden; 05-15-2013 at 12:45 PM..
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Old 05-15-2013, 12:41 PM
 
Location: New England
37,336 posts, read 28,087,833 times
Reputation: 2741
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
And yet, once again, you are the first to bring up sin and condemnation, and project it on others. That's exactly what I was talking about.

For out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh
So basically what you are saying is, you can shout from the rooftops about sin,judgement and condemnation, and if I or any other responds its to it proclaiming the over abounding grace of God, we are bringing up sin,judgement and condemnation?( how can you be taken seriously?). I have seen lives ruined by what you believe, this is why every time you speak of sin, I will be shouting from the rooftops about the over abounding grace of God.

I trust in the kindness of God not the sin focused christian to cause repentance.
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Old 05-15-2013, 12:59 PM
 
Location: Florida
76,949 posts, read 47,272,488 times
Reputation: 14761
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps View Post
So basically what you are saying is, you can shout from the rooftops about sin,judgement and condemnation, and if I or any other responds its to it proclaiming the over abounding grace of God, we are bringing up sin,judgement and condemnation.
Yes, you are the only one talking about it on this thread. Think about that. You bring it up, and then you say "is this all you talk about".

Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 05-15-2013 at 01:17 PM..
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