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Old 06-15-2013, 09:55 AM
 
Location: Missouri Ozarks
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
I have often wondered why animals must suffer since they are not accountable to God and not guilty of sin. Does anyone have any insight into this matter? It grieves me to know about the suffering of animals. They are subjected to be hunted, raised and killed for food, tormented by pests in the wild, subjected to starvation, cold, and even subjected to the cruelty of humans who abuse them at times. Why must this be so? Is it irrational for me to feel sorrowful about things like this?
You have asked a great question. I can't answer it but I agree with you.
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Old 06-15-2013, 10:14 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 10,916,184 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by little elmer View Post
But I like to think He is, if He cares about the sparrow as well as you and me.

I'm increasingly of the belief that man is to be His agent in this world, if we would come into our place in Christ. In the order that Adam was the governor of the Garden, we've got a bigger plot of land and more of us to govern. Creation is groaning for who? That's right, the sons of God.

But instead of reigning, we're floundering - a sermon for another Sunday.
Caring about and managing are two entirely different things. As I have said before, love and control are in opposition. "Agents in the world" is good.

Ooops, beat out by Pleroo .......again.
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Old 06-15-2013, 10:41 AM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
987 posts, read 1,118,659 times
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When evil entered the world through disobedience, which I feel HAD to happen, it fell upon all the inhabitants. Was it fair that ALL of Adam's ancestors inherited the death sentence, the condition of mortality? Babies die, are horribly abused, as are children and the mentally challenged who can not differentiate between good and evil. So too, the animal kingdom is subjected to nature's wrath, as well as human mistreatment.

"That in the dispensation of the fullness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him..." (Ephesians 1:10).

As was mentioned, God took the first animal life (unless there was death of animals before that point, it is not clarified in scripture...I tend to think there was NO death up to that point but it just isn't made clear). The Creator gave animals their instincts and either that was inherent from the beginning OR He triggered it to kick in after Adam sinned. So it WAS His plan from before the foundation of the world.

I do believe that the animal kingdom will be resurrected as well (I don't know about leeches and mosquitos, etc, and I would imagine the bacteria and viruses...all part of what the curse entailed... will be gone, I'll let God figure that out). He is the Savior of the WORLD and the world consists of animals as well as humans. I'll also leave plants to His will, though I don't know if they have any self awareness, I would think only the creatures with self awareness would be resurrected, but that is just my opinion and not fact. I still remember fondly all my pets and grieve for all the dogs and cats who were abandoned or born strays. I yearn so badly for them and all animals to live life in joy, not having to hunt and tear and rend or be the prey. As far as room, as some people question, why there are many many planets besides this one. Even this one will have lots more room when the deserts are made to bloom and all the inhospitable and uninhabitable places are like the garden of Eden. And if we are spiritual beings, why couldn't we go visit any of them and enjoy the animals there? There is so much God didn't tell us about His plan, I just trust Him that He will make all things right and every soul will be satisfied, not made to forget what happened here or what would the point have been?

It is ok to be grieved for them even so. Perhaps volunteer with animal rescue societies or contribute to funding one. Adopt a pet or two. I think it is much sadder to think about man's inhumanity to man. But did the perpetrators of those crimes come into this world wanting to do those crimes. As a child did they think, gee when I grow up I want to be a child molester, rapist, murderer, etc? Or did circumstances and the chemistry of their brain deliver them up? It's so easy to condemn other people for their atrocious behavior and come up with excuses for our own, even if they're not of the magnitude of others. God said that Assyria was a tool in His hand to discipline the Israelites. To me that doesn't sound like a God who just sits back and watches what we do.

Again, I think the first part, where God said He MADE man in His image, I believe He said prophetically, said, in a sense, from AFTER the fact, since He inhabits past, present and future simultaneously. I believe He IS NOW creating some in His image and the rest will be finished later. In our time, ONLY Jesus/Yeshua has been finished and is the PATTERN, in fact IN HIM we are all made new, In the image of God as Christ is in the image of God....if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.

So be at peace with your sympathy, Heartsong, but know that even the animals are said to be reconciled to God.
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Old 06-15-2013, 11:29 AM
 
794 posts, read 846,430 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
I have often wondered why animals must suffer since they are not accountable to God and not guilty of sin. Does anyone have any insight into this matter? It grieves me to know about the suffering of animals. They are subjected to be hunted, raised and killed for food, tormented by pests in the wild, subjected to starvation, cold, and even subjected to the cruelty of humans who abuse them at times. Why must this be so? Is it irrational for me to feel sorrowful about things like this?
God made Adam to be the federal heir of Earth. When the head of Earth sinned, God saw the whole world fall because its head fell. The same could be asked, why do we all suffer because of what Adam did? But you can also look at it like this, why are we are all saved? Because of what Jesus did. If God accepts the high priest, He accepts the entire nation. Since Adam was the high priest over Earth in the beginning, and he sinned, the whole world was rejected. But since God made Jesus to be the high priest over all the Earth, and He did not sin and sacrificed to God when He owed nothing, God accepts the entire world. The only part we have in all this is to believe that actually happened.
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Old 06-15-2013, 11:59 AM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
987 posts, read 1,118,659 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by romans519 View Post
God made Adam to be the federal heir of Earth. When the head of Earth sinned, God saw the whole world fall because its head fell. The same could be asked, why do we all suffer because of what Adam did? But you can also look at it like this, why are we are all saved? Because of what Jesus did. If God accepts the high priest, He accepts the entire nation. Since Adam was the high priest over Earth in the beginning, and he sinned, the whole world was rejected. But since God made Jesus to be the high priest over all the Earth, and He did not sin and sacrificed to God when He owed nothing, God accepts the entire world. The only part we have in all this is to believe that actually happened.
I LOVE that picture. You said it so simply!!!
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Old 06-15-2013, 12:27 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
10,016 posts, read 12,575,577 times
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The fall corrupted all of creation not just Mankind. Suffering is just one aspect of it. We will all suffer, every single one of us will to some degree. We long for that day when all suffering will cease and the world will be restored to that paradice it was before sin entered the world.

You know, as much as I hate seeing any animal suffer I have to think about all those little children all over the world who face horrible suffering, diseases and death every minute of every day.

May God hasten the day when out faith shall be made sight!
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Old 06-15-2013, 12:54 PM
 
Location: Sylmar, California
817 posts, read 739,428 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
And who killed the first animal in the garden of Eden?
A: The Lord God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. Genesis 3:21

And whose sacrifice to the LORD was found to be acceptable?
[1] Cain, the vegetarian: In the course of time Cain brought some of the fruits of the soil as an offering to the Lord.
[2] Abel, the animal slaughterer: Abel also brought an offering—fat portions from some of the firstborn of his flock.
A: (drum roll please ...) The Lord looked with favor on Abel and his offering Genesis 4:4



And yet who does God curse for being the murderer .... Cain, the vegetarian !!!
Yes, that's an interesting one isn't it?
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Old 06-15-2013, 01:20 PM
 
Location: Sunny Bay Area, CA
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I agree that it's a result of the sin of Adam and Eve...I'm also very sad about it.
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Old 06-15-2013, 01:30 PM
 
351 posts, read 355,071 times
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Hi everyone I think a lot are missing the big picture. God set the universe to run on certain laws. His purpose was to create man in his image. Everything in the universe is interconnected. Why God set it up this way I have no idea, but I do know that God is perfect and his ways are perfect, so this is the best way to accomplish his purpose of creating us (his children) in his image. So all of creation including suffering and animals going through what they do is to fulfill God's plan. To try to break off one piece of this creation and explain it without the interconnection with everything else is foolish and we can not understand it . We do not see as God sees but take it to the bank that He knows exactly what He is doing ans it is the best way for everything.
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Old 06-15-2013, 01:34 PM
 
Location: Pilot Point, TX
7,874 posts, read 14,176,247 times
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If you will pardon, I'll repeat that the suffering continues because we're not entering into rest. If we knew our place in Christ, we could effect change in the earth, imo.
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