U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-07-2007, 05:08 PM
 
Location: All around the world.....
2,886 posts, read 7,492,242 times
Reputation: 1048

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaykay View Post
Yep, heard arguments from both sides of the fence and this is one of those controversial areas of potential disagreement among Christians. As sun queen noted, I think a case could be mounted either way. Personally, I have studied the scriptures relating to this and I believe in a post-tribulation rapture. I just don't see any compelling reason to believe that the 2nd coming of Jesus and the rapture are 2 separate events. Especially if you examine what Jesus says about His return in the gospels.

If God's taking a vote, I vote for pre-trib, however! But, seriously, as sun queen said, those of us who believe need to have lives ready to meet the Lord at any time because we are not promised tomorrow anyway and for any one of us, it could be "showtime" for us personally tonight.
Hi Kaykay
Since you've studied this; can you offer some scriptures, so that i may read them also; I know about Rev 20 already
Thanks
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-07-2007, 06:11 PM
 
1,932 posts, read 4,329,632 times
Reputation: 1235
yhwhshalomjr, See ILNC's post a couple back. She lists some scripture on this topic.

Also, I'll clarify my stance. Yes, I believe in the rapture (pre-trib) and the great tribulation. However, I don't pin all my hopes upon this. I won't lose faith if I, as a Christian, have to go through the great tribulation if I happened to have mis-understood the scriptures. Like others have said, my hope and faith is placed in Jesus. Jesus said he will return again. This is true and this will happen. That will be a glorious time, whether it happens today, tomorrow or in 20 years. That is the hope that lifts my heart, that when we accept Jesus, we can know He will return for His children. The when or under what circumstance is a side-line issue.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-07-2007, 06:13 PM
 
Location: Texas
8,668 posts, read 20,282,202 times
Reputation: 21296
Quote:
Originally Posted by yhwhshalomjr View Post
Hi Kaykay
Since you've studied this; can you offer some scriptures, so that i may read them also; I know about Rev 20 already
Thanks
You would have to ask me that. I didn't mention the fact that my study took place about umpteen years ago!

I will look at some of the scriptures I found convincing and post when I can.

Okay, one just right off the bat that I think supports a post-trib view is Matthew 24: 29-31. (I think this is pretty strong by itself but I will continue to look.) And similar passage also exists in Mark 13:24-27.
I think these two coupled with lack of convincing scriptures (at least to me) regarding a pre-trib rapture is what pretty much sold me years ago on a post-trib viewpoint. I'm not dogmatic about it, but this is what I believe. I could be wrong. It has happened a couple of times (that kaykay was wrong!)

Last edited by kaykay; 11-07-2007 at 06:28 PM.. Reason: add scripture I found...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-07-2007, 07:36 PM
 
6 posts, read 12,825 times
Reputation: 10
Smile are you really sure about the rapture?

Quote:
Originally Posted by arguy1973 View Post
1 Thessalonians 4:13-17: "But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."

Im a pre-trib Rapture believer.
John 17:15 (JESUS praying to The Father) "I pray NOT that thou shouldest TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, but that thou should keep them from evil."

Verse 20 - Neither pray I for these alone but for them also which shall believe on me through their word. (That is you and me.)

If JESUS asked NOT to take us OUT, we're NOT going! The Rapture theory has nothing to do with your Salvation. Just make sure you are ready to meet Jesus, no matter how or when you die, or when Jesus returns to the earth to set up His Kingdom.

Matthew 24:37-41 (Jesus speaking) But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days that were before the flood, THEY (the wicked) were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark. And THEY (the wicked) knew not until the flood came and took THEM (the wicked) ALL AWAY; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.
THEY and THEM are clearly the WICKED (ungodly unbelievers).
Verse 40 - Then shall two be in the field, the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN, and the other left.
Two shall be grinding at the mill; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN and the other left.
Luke 17:26, 27 and 34-36 (Jesus speaking) As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the day of the Son of Man. THEY (the WICKED) did eat, THEY (the WICKED) did drink, THEY (the WICKED) married wives, THEY (the WICKED) were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came and destroyed THEM (the WICKED) all.
...I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed,; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left.
Two women shall be grinding together; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left.
Two men shall be in the field; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left.
RAPTURE believers think THEY will be the ONE TAKEN. If you think YOU will be TAKEN, lets see what Jesus says will happen to you.
Luke 17:37, Jesus answers the disciples question of what happens to the TAKEN ONES. Jesus said, WHERE THERE IS A DEAD BODY, THERE THE VULTURES WILL GATHER.
2 Peter 2:5 (Peter speaking) (God) saved (kept safe) Noah...bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly (WICKED).
Matthew 13:24-30 The parable of the wheat and the tares. Gather together FIRST THE TARES. Jesus continues, The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they will gather OUT of His Kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity....
Luke 17:29,30 (Jesus speaking) ...(in) Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from Heaven and destroyed THEM ALL. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. THE WICKED were destroyed, once again.
Matthew 13:47-50 (Jesus speaking) Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a net that was cast into the sea and gathered of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but THREW THE BAD AWAY. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and SEVER THE WICKED from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire...
Once again the GOOD remain and the BAD are thrown away. THE WICKED TAKEN and destroyed "from among the just," who remain on the earth.
I Thessalonians 5:3 (Paul speaking) For when THEY (THE WICKED) shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction shall come upon THEM...and they shall not escape.
Matthew 24:21,22 and Mark 13:19,20 (Jesus speaking) For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved (survive); but for THE ELECT's sake whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days.
How can there be THE ELECT during this time IF they went in THE RAPTURE?
ELECT is also mentioned in Luke 18:7; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; Titus 1:1
Proverbs 2:21, 22 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall REMAIN in it, but THE WICKED shall be cut off (taken/destroyed) from the earth and the transgressors shall be rooted OUT of it.
Psalm 145:20 The Lord preserveth ALL that love him; but ALL THE WICKED He will destroy.
Proverbs 10:30 The righteous shall NEVER be REMOVED;
Proverbs 11:31 The righteous shall be recompensed IN the (world) earth...
Psalm 101:8 I (God) will early (first) destroy THE WICKED of the land...
Psalm 119:119 All THE WICKED of the earth you discard (throw away) like dross.
Proverbs 25:4,5 Take AWAY the dross from the silver...Take AWAY THE WICKED from before the King...
Isaiah 5:24 and 29:5 The flame consumeth the chaff (WICKED).
Job 21:18 THEY (THE WICKED) are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth AWAY.
Job 38:13 (Speaking to God) ...take hold of the ends of the earth that THE WICKED might be shaken OUT of it.
Malachi 4:1 For behold the day cometh...and all that do WICKEDLY, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up...
Psalm 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the land (earth) and dwell therein FOREVER.
Psalm 37:9-11 For evildoers (WICKED) shall be cut off (destroyed); but those that wait upon the Lord shall inherit the earth.
Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger...and He shall destroy the sinners thereof OUT of it (the earth).
Psalm 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed OUT OF THE EARTH (world), and let the wicked be no more.
Psalm 52:5 God shall likewise destroy THEE (THE WICKED) forever; He shall take THEE AWAY, and pluck THEE OUT of thy dwelling place.
The above are just some of the Scriptures that make it CLEAR that the righteous STAY, and THE WICKED GO.
Ezekiel 9:4-6 and Revelation 9:3,4 talk about THE WICKED being destroyed in the midst of the RIGHTEOUS.






Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-07-2007, 08:11 PM
 
2,946 posts, read 4,868,751 times
Reputation: 1610
Quote:
Originally Posted by arguy1973 View Post
To be "absent from the body" is to be "present with the Lord" (2 Cor. 5:8). IMHO..one of the most comforting assurances for the child of God. Death for the Christian is not so much an exit out of life as it is an entry into the Lord's presence in a very personal sense.

To be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-08-2007, 08:52 AM
 
Location: ARK-KIN-SAW
3,434 posts, read 8,928,872 times
Reputation: 1578
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharingthetruth View Post
John 17:15 (JESUS praying to The Father) "I pray NOT that thou shouldest TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, but that thou should keep them from evil."

Verse 20 - Neither pray I for these alone but for them also which shall believe on me through their word. (That is you and me.)

If JESUS asked NOT to take us OUT, we're NOT going! The Rapture theory has nothing to do with your Salvation. Just make sure you are ready to meet Jesus, no matter how or when you die, or when Jesus returns to the earth to set up His Kingdom.

Matthew 24:37-41 (Jesus speaking) But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days that were before the flood, THEY (the wicked) were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark. And THEY (the wicked) knew not until the flood came and took THEM (the wicked) ALL AWAY; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.
THEY and THEM are clearly the WICKED (ungodly unbelievers).
Verse 40 - Then shall two be in the field, the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN, and the other left.
Two shall be grinding at the mill; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN and the other left.
Luke 17:26, 27 and 34-36 (Jesus speaking) As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the day of the Son of Man. THEY (the WICKED) did eat, THEY (the WICKED) did drink, THEY (the WICKED) married wives, THEY (the WICKED) were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came and destroyed THEM (the WICKED) all.
...I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed,; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left.
Two women shall be grinding together; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left.
Two men shall be in the field; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left.
RAPTURE believers think THEY will be the ONE TAKEN. If you think YOU will be TAKEN, lets see what Jesus says will happen to you.
Luke 17:37, Jesus answers the disciples question of what happens to the TAKEN ONES. Jesus said, WHERE THERE IS A DEAD BODY, THERE THE VULTURES WILL GATHER.
2 Peter 2:5 (Peter speaking) (God) saved (kept safe) Noah...bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly (WICKED).
Matthew 13:24-30 The parable of the wheat and the tares. Gather together FIRST THE TARES. Jesus continues, The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they will gather OUT of His Kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity....
Luke 17:29,30 (Jesus speaking) ...(in) Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from Heaven and destroyed THEM ALL. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. THE WICKED were destroyed, once again.
Matthew 13:47-50 (Jesus speaking) Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a net that was cast into the sea and gathered of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but THREW THE BAD AWAY. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and SEVER THE WICKED from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire...
Once again the GOOD remain and the BAD are thrown away. THE WICKED TAKEN and destroyed "from among the just," who remain on the earth.
I Thessalonians 5:3 (Paul speaking) For when THEY (THE WICKED) shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction shall come upon THEM...and they shall not escape.
Matthew 24:21,22 and Mark 13:19,20 (Jesus speaking) For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved (survive); but for THE ELECT's sake whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days.
How can there be THE ELECT during this time IF they went in THE RAPTURE?
ELECT is also mentioned in Luke 18:7; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; Titus 1:1
Proverbs 2:21, 22 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall REMAIN in it, but THE WICKED shall be cut off (taken/destroyed) from the earth and the transgressors shall be rooted OUT of it.
Psalm 145:20 The Lord preserveth ALL that love him; but ALL THE WICKED He will destroy.
Proverbs 10:30 The righteous shall NEVER be REMOVED;
Proverbs 11:31 The righteous shall be recompensed IN the (world) earth...
Psalm 101:8 I (God) will early (first) destroy THE WICKED of the land...
Psalm 119:119 All THE WICKED of the earth you discard (throw away) like dross.
Proverbs 25:4,5 Take AWAY the dross from the silver...Take AWAY THE WICKED from before the King...
Isaiah 5:24 and 29:5 The flame consumeth the chaff (WICKED).
Job 21:18 THEY (THE WICKED) are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth AWAY.
Job 38:13 (Speaking to God) ...take hold of the ends of the earth that THE WICKED might be shaken OUT of it.
Malachi 4:1 For behold the day cometh...and all that do WICKEDLY, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up...
Psalm 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the land (earth) and dwell therein FOREVER.
Psalm 37:9-11 For evildoers (WICKED) shall be cut off (destroyed); but those that wait upon the Lord shall inherit the earth.
Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger...and He shall destroy the sinners thereof OUT of it (the earth).
Psalm 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed OUT OF THE EARTH (world), and let the wicked be no more.
Psalm 52:5 God shall likewise destroy THEE (THE WICKED) forever; He shall take THEE AWAY, and pluck THEE OUT of thy dwelling place.
The above are just some of the Scriptures that make it CLEAR that the righteous STAY, and THE WICKED GO.
Ezekiel 9:4-6 and Revelation 9:3,4 talk about THE WICKED being destroyed in the midst of the RIGHTEOUS.






all I see are fonts, Im sorry, and I dont wanna argue, you can believe whatever you like **wow the fonts go away when you quote....
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-08-2007, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Somewhere along the path to where I'd like to be.
2,180 posts, read 4,989,991 times
Reputation: 810
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharingthetruth View Post
John 17:15 (JESUS praying to The Father) "I pray NOT that thou shouldest TAKE THEM OUT OF THE WORLD, but that thou should keep them from evil."

Verse 20 - Neither pray I for these alone but for them also which shall believe on me through their word. (That is you and me.)

If JESUS asked NOT to take us OUT, we're NOT going! The Rapture theory has nothing to do with your Salvation. Just make sure you are ready to meet Jesus, no matter how or when you die, or when Jesus returns to the earth to set up His Kingdom.

Matthew 24:37-41 (Jesus speaking) But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be. For as in the days that were before the flood, THEY (the wicked) were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark. And THEY (the wicked) knew not until the flood came and took THEM (the wicked) ALL AWAY; so shall also the coming of the Son of Man be.
THEY and THEM are clearly the WICKED (ungodly unbelievers).
Verse 40 - Then shall two be in the field, the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN, and the other left.
Two shall be grinding at the mill; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN and the other left.
Luke 17:26, 27 and 34-36 (Jesus speaking) As it was in the days of Noah, so shall it be also in the day of the Son of Man. THEY (the WICKED) did eat, THEY (the WICKED) did drink, THEY (the WICKED) married wives, THEY (the WICKED) were given in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came and destroyed THEM (the WICKED) all.
...I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed,; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left.
Two women shall be grinding together; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left.
Two men shall be in the field; the (WICKED) one SHALL BE TAKEN (destroyed) and the other left.
RAPTURE believers think THEY will be the ONE TAKEN. If you think YOU will be TAKEN, lets see what Jesus says will happen to you.
Luke 17:37, Jesus answers the disciples question of what happens to the TAKEN ONES. Jesus said, WHERE THERE IS A DEAD BODY, THERE THE VULTURES WILL GATHER.
2 Peter 2:5 (Peter speaking) (God) saved (kept safe) Noah...bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly (WICKED).
Matthew 13:24-30 The parable of the wheat and the tares. Gather together FIRST THE TARES. Jesus continues, The Son of Man shall send forth His angels, and they will gather OUT of His Kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity....
Luke 17:29,30 (Jesus speaking) ...(in) Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from Heaven and destroyed THEM ALL. Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed. THE WICKED were destroyed, once again.
Matthew 13:47-50 (Jesus speaking) Again, the Kingdom of Heaven is like unto a net that was cast into the sea and gathered of every kind, which, when it was full, they drew to shore; and they sat down and gathered the good into vessels, but THREW THE BAD AWAY. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and SEVER THE WICKED from among the just, and cast them into the furnace of fire...
Once again the GOOD remain and the BAD are thrown away. THE WICKED TAKEN and destroyed "from among the just," who remain on the earth.
I Thessalonians 5:3 (Paul speaking) For when THEY (THE WICKED) shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction shall come upon THEM...and they shall not escape.
Matthew 24:21,22 and Mark 13:19,20 (Jesus speaking) For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved (survive); but for THE ELECT's sake whom He hath chosen, He hath shortened the days.
How can there be THE ELECT during this time IF they went in THE RAPTURE?
ELECT is also mentioned in Luke 18:7; Romans 8:33; Colossians 3:12; Titus 1:1
Proverbs 2:21, 22 For the upright shall dwell in the land, and the perfect shall REMAIN in it, but THE WICKED shall be cut off (taken/destroyed) from the earth and the transgressors shall be rooted OUT of it.
Psalm 145:20 The Lord preserveth ALL that love him; but ALL THE WICKED He will destroy.
Proverbs 10:30 The righteous shall NEVER be REMOVED;
Proverbs 11:31 The righteous shall be recompensed IN the (world) earth...
Psalm 101:8 I (God) will early (first) destroy THE WICKED of the land...
Psalm 119:119 All THE WICKED of the earth you discard (throw away) like dross.
Proverbs 25:4,5 Take AWAY the dross from the silver...Take AWAY THE WICKED from before the King...
Isaiah 5:24 and 29:5 The flame consumeth the chaff (WICKED).
Job 21:18 THEY (THE WICKED) are as stubble before the wind, and as chaff that the storm carrieth AWAY.
Job 38:13 (Speaking to God) ...take hold of the ends of the earth that THE WICKED might be shaken OUT of it.
Malachi 4:1 For behold the day cometh...and all that do WICKEDLY, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up...
Psalm 37:29 The righteous shall inherit the land (earth) and dwell therein FOREVER.
Psalm 37:9-11 For evildoers (WICKED) shall be cut off (destroyed); but those that wait upon the Lord shall inherit the earth.
Isaiah 13:9 Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger...and He shall destroy the sinners thereof OUT of it (the earth).
Psalm 104:35 Let the sinners be consumed OUT OF THE EARTH (world), and let the wicked be no more.
Psalm 52:5 God shall likewise destroy THEE (THE WICKED) forever; He shall take THEE AWAY, and pluck THEE OUT of thy dwelling place.
The above are just some of the Scriptures that make it CLEAR that the righteous STAY, and THE WICKED GO.
Ezekiel 9:4-6 and Revelation 9:3,4 talk about THE WICKED being destroyed in the midst of the RIGHTEOUS.







Any chance you could repost all that? It's a bit hard to read.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-09-2007, 06:59 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,089,707 times
Reputation: 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by mams1559 View Post
I Thessalonians 4:13-18 (NIV) -- "Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men, who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words."

See also John 14:1-3 and John 11:25-26.

This is God's word that tells me believers in Christ will be raptured. I believe we will be raptured pre-trib, because God protects those who chose him from his wrath. Noah et. all were called into the ark to escape the wrath of the Flood. Lot and his family were allowed to leave Sodom & Gamorrah before their destruction. So, I believe we follower and believers in Christ will be called up into the clouds before the great tribulation begins. It can also be said the rapture could prompt the beginning of the tribulation because of all the chaos that would ensure following the "disapperance" of so many believers all over the world.
Mams1559: To whom is Paul writing in his letters to the Thessalonians? What is the audience relevance of these passages? These were real people going through real persecutions and tribulation. Paul is addressing those circumstances. When he says "WE," he means himself and those to whom he is directly writing. A time was soon coming in his day when those who were waiting in Hades would receive their heavenly incorruptible bodies and be taken to be with the Lord. That had never happened before (see Luke 16).

This was the comfort of which Paul spoke. No comfort would have been afforded them by thinking that thousands of years later they would go to be with the Lord! Christ was coming back to them--to rescue them and to vindicate them by punishing their enemies, the apostate Jews of their day whom Christ declared guilty of all the righteous blood shed on the earth (Mat. 23).

This is also the fulfillment of 1 Corinthians 15. Christ came in judgment in A.D. 70, the Old Covenant vanished away and the New came forth eternally. Christ's kingdom which is not of this world was fully established and "true" Jews, those circumcised in their hearts, became a kingdom of priests and the true Israel of God.

To place these things in our day is to neglect the sitz im leben, the audience relevance, and the time statements which give it a first-century fulfillment. James said, "The coming of the Lord is AT HAND" (James 5:8) and it was!

Preterist
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-09-2007, 07:37 AM
 
1,932 posts, read 4,329,632 times
Reputation: 1235
So Jesus' second coming has already happened in 70 AD? The Lord's trumpet sounded and all the dead in Christ rose and then those living who believed in Christ in 70 AD were also caught up in the clouds with Him? That already happened is what you're saying? I don't see how, seeing as most of the NT was written by the disciples well after 70 AD.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-09-2007, 09:19 AM
 
1,897 posts, read 3,089,707 times
Reputation: 284
Quote:
Originally Posted by mams1559 View Post
So Jesus' second coming has already happened in 70 AD? The Lord's trumpet sounded and all the dead in Christ rose and then those living who believed in Christ in 70 AD were also caught up in the clouds with Him? That already happened is what you're saying? I don't see how, seeing as most of the NT was written by the disciples well after 70 AD.
It is generally agreed by scholars that most of the NT was written prior to A.D. 70. I believe that all of it was written before A.D. 70 including the Book of Revelation.

When did Jesus Himself say the trumpet would sound? In Matthew 24:34 He clearly places that event in His generation. "This generation will by no means pass away till ALL these things (Mat. 24:29-31) take place." (to include the sounding of the trumpet). As for being caught up (1 Thes. 4), notice that Paul is speaking of himself and his fellow saints of his day. That is the audience relevance. His comfort to them was that they were to be rescued and avenged in their lifetimes. Paul said "WE who are alive and remain . . . ." This is a personal expectation.

I believe we must rethink our understanding of the nature of the resurrection and what we have been taught regarding the gathering together to Christ. Was it to be a time of physical bodies bursting forth from the ground and rising to meet Christ in the air? Did Jesus not on numerous occasions tell those saints of the first century that He was coming back to them and for them? (John 14)

Furthermore, the apostle John was clearly given the time frame for all of the events of the Revelation in chapters 1 and 22--the things which in his day were to SHORTLY take place because the time was AT HAND. If we place this marvelous book in its proper historical setting, many of the mysteries clear up.

Notice also that James said "The COMING of the Lord is AT HAND" (Js. 5:8).
Jesus said to the Twelve as He was sending THEM out to the lost sheep of Israel:

"YOU [the Twelve] will not have gone through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man COMES" (Mt. 10:23).

In Matthew 16:28 Jesus clearly states that some standing there with Him would not die before He returned in His kingdom:

"There are some standing here who will not taste death till THEY see the Son of Man COMING in His kingdom."

In Matthew 24 Jesus is addressing His disciples right there with Him. The events He speaks of will affect them personally. THEY were to recognize the signs of His coming as easily as THEY recognized the signs of the coming of summer in the budding of the trees. THEY were to watch and be ready. Later, In Matthew 26:64, Jesus tells Caiaphas and the Sanhedrin:

"YOU will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of power and COMING on the CLOUDS of heaven." (Same clouds of Matthew 24).

I believe the rapture of physical bodies concept comes from the coming forth from the graves of people following the resurrection of Christ. But those were not resurrections but rather resuscitations. Like Lazarus, they all died once more. The true nature of the resurrection is seen in 1 Corinthians 15. Paul restates the common question: "How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?"

The whole point of it all is that God gives the body as He pleases. The dead are sown in corruption but raised in incorruption; sown in dishonor but raised in glory; sown in weakness but raised in power; sown a NATURAL body but raised a SPIRITUAL body. In this life we bear the image of the man of dust; in resurrection we bear the image of the heavenly Man. From dust we are made and to dust we return. The body is not evil but is not of the great significance many give it for existence in the afterlife. We are much more than bodies. If what is raised is spiritual and fitted for heaven, there is no need for flesh and bone bodies to burst forth out of the ground en masse.

Also, in the Greek text is a very significant word "mello" meaning "about to." It is found in the Greek NT over 100 times. Sadly, that word is routinely ignored or translated with the simple future tense. However, this is what the Greek text says in Acts 24:15--

"There is ABOUT TO BE a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked."
Paul spoke this to Governor Felix who trembled in fear because of it.

The timing of this is seen in Paul's use of the first-person plural pronoun "we" in 1 Corinthians 15:51-52. We must observe the audience relevance here. He is clearly including himself and his fellow first-century believers when he says "WE shall not all fall asleep, but WE shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound (in that generation of Mt. 24:34), and the dead will be raised imperishable, and WE shall be changed." This was Paul's blessed hope and expectation for himself and his fellow saints in their lifetimes!

Could it be that for too many years we have accepted a wrong understanding of the nature of the coming of Christ and the resurrection and judgment which accompanied His Parousia?

Preterist
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:53 PM.

© 2005-2019, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top