U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
View Poll Results: Is acceptance of the formalized doctrine of The Holy Trinity a prerequisite for salvation?
Yes 4 21.05%
No 13 68.42%
Maybe 1 5.26%
No Idea 1 5.26%
Voters: 19. You may not vote on this poll

Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-30-2013, 08:02 AM
 
Location: Whereever we have our RV parked
8,084 posts, read 7,096,342 times
Reputation: 13557

Advertisements

1. The three persons of God are mentioned in many places in the OT, so the Trinity is not just a NT concept. EG: Creation story mentions the spirit. Ex 3. Mentions that God speaks to the messenger of God, or the Angel of the Lord who is also God. This is the Son. If there is a Son, there must be a Father.

God of thunder: Obviously, to show the proofs for all these texts is beyond the scope of one forum or one posting. I've already mentioned the sources one could study if one honestly wanted to study the issue. I guess is that you just want to argue. Its my guess that you could have witnessed the Baptism of Jesus himself and still not believe, so I will just let you to the sources I've mentioned if you honestly are seeking to study the issue, but I have no interest in an argument. Arguments accomplish nothing.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-30-2013, 08:16 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
15,574 posts, read 7,029,485 times
Reputation: 1607
In all honesty, is not the Trinity concept that is the problem. It is the parsing out of all possible perceptions of the relationship of the three parts of that concept and pronouncements on exactly how and what must be the statement of belief regardless of the fact that it is acknowledged to be a mystery beyond our comprehension.

It is not Trinity Doctrine, however, that is responsible for all the bloodshed surrounding it; it is the unstated conviction that it is appropriate to enforce orthodoxy in any matter to the point of that bloodshed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-30-2013, 08:19 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
15,574 posts, read 7,029,485 times
Reputation: 1607
Quote:
Originally Posted by littlewitness View Post
'isms...from the least to the greatest, one must work a work worthy of acceptation. As for The One True
G-d whom I serve willingly without coercion...any work beyond simple belief in Yeshua is deemed unworthy by Him.
Only one work will G-d accept from any man as righteous...believe in Yeshua Messiac!
"Unworthy" of what?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-30-2013, 10:58 AM
 
Location: So California
8,381 posts, read 8,464,681 times
Reputation: 4578
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post

I've studied the formalized Trinity at great length. I've spent years trying to really and truly understand it. It is because of studying it at great length that I've realized that the formalized Nicene Trinity cannot be found in the Bible. It cannot be demonstrated that Jesus Christ ever taught it. It cannot be demonstrated that his apostles did either.

I'm asking for those that flippantly tell others they are going to hell for their failure to accept all 35 points to please show me those 35 things in the Bible. I don't think it is possible, but if the salvation of hundreds of millions of souls really is as stake then I'm more than willing to be proven wrong on the matter.

You are correct, the formalized Trinity can not be found in the Bible.
As far as Mormons go, this is one of two primary issues that mainstream Christianity has. The first being the belief that God the father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit are three distinct beings, one in purpose. Thats such a basic concept that we as children of God exercise and experience here on Earth on a daily basis. We are taught by example and by experience, and we are created in Gods image. If you were a new convert to Christianity and read the Bible would you come to the conclusion of the Trinity? I dont think so. This is the doctrine of men and political leaders. This thread isnt about this, but since I brought it up, the other main point of departure between LDS doctrine and main stream Christianity is the concept of continuing revelation. We can save that for another thread, but this is also such a basic thing that to deny it may be to deny Gods existence all together.

Great article by, Jeffrey R. Holland

And I'll post a few quotes for those who dont wish to read it:

Indeed no less a source than the stalwart Harper’s Bible Dictionary records that “the formal doctrine of the Trinity as it was defined by the great church councils of the fourth and fifth centuries is not to be found in the [New Testament].”3

...any criticism that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not hold the contemporary Christian view of God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost is not a comment about our commitment to Christ but rather a recognition (accurate, I might add) that our view of the Godhead breaks with post–New Testament Christian history and returns to the doctrine taught by Jesus Himself. Now, a word about that post–New Testament history might be helpful.


With these New Testament sources and more8 ringing in our ears, it may be redundant to ask what Jesus meant when He said, “The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do.”9 On another occasion He said, “I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.”10 Of His antagonists He said, “[They have] … seen and hated both me and my Father.”11 And there is, of course, that always deferential subordination to His Father that had Jesus say, “Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.”12 “My father is greater than I.”13
To whom was Jesus pleading so fervently all those years, including in such anguished cries as “O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me”14 and “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me”?15 To acknowledge the scriptural evidence that otherwise perfectly united members of the Godhead are nevertheless separate and distinct beings is not to be guilty of polytheism; it is, rather, part of the great revelation Jesus came to deliver concerning the nature of divine beings. Perhaps the Apostle Paul said it best: “Christ Jesus … being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God.”16

The Only True God and Jesus Christ Whom He Hath Sent - general-conference
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-30-2013, 10:59 AM
 
Location: Pikeville, Ky.
13,467 posts, read 21,230,304 times
Reputation: 17687
My answer to the OP is.

(IMO, of course) No, the Ecumenical councils have no authority over the bible and no authority over man except if he chooses to follow them instead of Christ who has written his word from God in our hearts and sent the Comforter/ Holy Spirit to further teach/guide us to God.
__________________
Moderator of:
Non Romantic Relationships
Parenting, and sub-forums
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-30-2013, 11:38 AM
 
Location: So California
8,381 posts, read 8,464,681 times
Reputation: 4578
Quote:
Originally Posted by Miss Blue View Post
My answer to the OP is.

(IMO, of course) No, the Ecumenical councils have no authority over the bible and no authority over man except if he chooses to follow them instead of Christ who has written his word from God in our hearts and sent the Comforter/ Holy Spirit to further teach/guide us to God.
For me, its been good to see the votes here that most believe this way. Not any type of, Im right your wrong scenario, but just the recognition that the Ecumenical councils do not = Gods Word.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-30-2013, 03:39 PM
 
Location: East Coast
30,285 posts, read 20,026,374 times
Reputation: 2110
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerwade View Post
Is acceptance of the formalized doctrine of The Holy Trinity a prerequisite for salvation?
In the name of the Father,Son and the Holy Ghost...............No
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-30-2013, 04:11 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 9,829,925 times
Reputation: 1302
Quote:
Originally Posted by godofthunder9010 View Post

Simply put, they are saying "they do not accept these 35 things." They do not accept the formalized Nicene Trinity.

1.) "Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the universal faith."
2.) "That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity"
3.) "Neither confounding the Persons; nor dividing the Essence."
4.) "For there is one Person of the Father; another of the Son; and another of the Holy Ghost."
5.) "But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost, is all one"
6.) "the Glory equal, the Majesty coeternal."
7.) "The Father uncreated; the Son uncreated; and the Holy Ghost uncreated."
8.) "The Father unlimited; the Son unlimited; and the Holy Ghost unlimited."
9.) "The Father eternal; the Son eternal; and the Holy Ghost eternal."
10.) "And yet they are not three eternals; but one eternal."
11.) "As also there are not three uncreated; nor three infinites, but one uncreated; and one infinite."
12.) "So likewise the Father is Almighty; the Son Almighty; and the Holy Ghost Almighty."
13.) "And yet they are not three Almighties; but one Almighty."
14.) "So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God."
15.) "So the Father is God; the Son is God; and the Holy Ghost is God."
16.) "So likewise the Father is Lord; the Son Lord; and the Holy Ghost Lord. And yet not three Lords; but one Lord."
17.) "For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity; to acknowledge every Person by himself to be God and Lord"
18.) "So are we forbidden by the catholic religion; to say, There are three Gods, or three Lords."
19.) "The Father is made of none; neither created, nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone; not made, nor created; but begotten."
20.) "The Holy Ghost is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten; but proceeding."
21.) "So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Ghost, not three Holy Ghosts."
22.) " And in this Trinity none is before, or after another; none is greater, or less than another. But the whole three Persons are coeternal, and coequal."
23.) "So that in all things, as aforesaid; the Unity in Trinity, and the Trinity in Unity, is to be worshipped. He therefore that will be saved, let him thus think of the Trinity."
24.) "Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation; that he also believe faithfully the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ."
25.) "For the right Faith is, that we believe and confess; that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and Man; God, of the Essence of the Father; begotten before the worlds; and Man, of the Essence of his Mother, born in the world."
26.) "Perfect God; and perfect Man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting."
27.) "Equal to the Father, as touching his Godhead; and inferior to the Father as touching his Manhood."
28.) "One; not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh; but by assumption of the Manhood by God."
29.) "One altogether; not by confusion of Essence; but by unity of Person. "
31.) "For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ; "
32.) "Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead."
33.) "He ascended into heaven, he sitteth on the right hand of the God the Father Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the quick and the dead. "
34.) " And shall give account for their own works. And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire."
35.) "This is the universal faith; which except a man believe truly and firmly, he cannot be saved."


I've studied the formalized Trinity at great length. I've spent years trying to really and truly understand it. It is because of studying it at great length that I've realized that the formalized Nicene Trinity cannot be found in the Bible. It cannot be demonstrated that Jesus Christ ever taught it. It cannot be demonstrated that his apostles did either.

I'm asking for those that flippantly tell others they are going to hell for their failure to accept all 35 points to please show me those 35 things in the Bible. I don't think it is possible, but if the salvation of hundreds of millions of souls really is as stake then I'm more than willing to be proven wrong on the matter.
secondly ..... the bolded above is not Nicene Creed, but then what else but strawman arguments do you have?

Yea right ..... you're "more than willing to be proven wrong on the matter."
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-30-2013, 04:20 PM
 
Location: Pikeville, Ky.
13,467 posts, read 21,230,304 times
Reputation: 17687
Just a quick reminder that this thread is not about Mormonism as the op does not mention it..Please keep it on topic
__________________
Moderator of:
Non Romantic Relationships
Parenting, and sub-forums
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-30-2013, 05:28 PM
 
14 posts, read 6,237 times
Reputation: 11
No one could be wrong, relative to their own availability to grasp at a conception. These infinite characterizations would be understood as Christians in principal, not of this world. Sometimes tug a war is for a rope and a puddle of mud.

Last edited by feildway; 06-30-2013 at 05:45 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top