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Actually you are believing in the great apostasy that has already happened. How many more thousands of years did you think it would take for the latter days to be here .2000+ years is pretty "latter." The majority already DO believe the anti-Christ Gospel of the OT God our ignorant ancestors believed in. They reject the God of love Jesus revealed unambiguously with His life, teachings and death. They pervert the sense of justice into an abomination worthy of Satan . . . NOT our loving Father.
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Originally Posted by romans519
Those who believe in Jesus the way you do are not that common so you really have no grounds other than personal belief inconsistent with all of scripture to say those who believe Jesus died for our sins are part of the great apostasy.
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Originally Posted by MysticPhD
OF course we are not that common . . . what did you think the great apostasy would be like? The majority would believe the false, OT perverted anti-Christ Gospel and very few would believe Christ's real Gospel of love.
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Originally Posted by romans519
You have it backwards. I said there are actually few who believe in Jesus the way you do. Few unbelievers in the true gospel believe the OT authors were ignorant. I didn't say there weren't many who don't believe Jesus died for our sins. That is the great apostasy and it is being heralded into this age quickly.
Try reading more carefullly. YOU have the conditions of the apostasy backwards. In the apostasy it is the majority who believe the apostate (false and perverted) Gospel of the anti-Christ. That is the situation today 2000+ "latter days" from the death of Christ. There is nothing to herald. It has been heralded for 2000+ years. The mainstream Christian churches TODAY ARE the prophesied majority great anti-Christ apostasy . . . claiming to represent Christ and His Gospel. I and those who believe the original Gospel of Christ and His unambiguous example of God's love are the few. Come out from her (Babylon) and join me and those who agree with me . . . and know Christ and the Father..
Try reading more carefullly. YOU have the conditions of the apostasy backwards. In the apostasy it is the majority who believe the apostate (false and perverted) Gospel of the anti-Christ. That is the situation today 2000+ "latter days" from the death of Christ. There is nothing to herald. It has been heralded for 2000+ years. The mainstream Christian churches TODAY ARE the prophesied majority great anti-Christ apostasy . . . claiming to represent Christ and His Gospel. I and those who believe the original Gospel of Christ and His unambiguous example of God's love are the few. Come out from her (Babylon) and join me and those who agree with me . . . and know Christ and the Father..
I hope no one believes the heresy you believe and have spoken here on these forums. JESUS CHRIST died for our sins and the entire bible is the word of God. How dare you call the authors of the old testament ignorant. How dare you insult God and Jesus by denying He died for our sins. How dare you call yourself a Christian when only those who believe in the finished work of Christ are children of God. Every event in the bible is consistent with each other and none of it contradicts itself. You believe the only books that belong are the ones where Jesus spoke in. You refuse to believe in Jesus being the lamb of God! ANYONE who believes in a Jesus that did not die for our sins is part of the great apostasy. How dare you say me and those who believe likewise are the great apostasy. You have been mislead and created a God in your mind that is not of the gospel just like the new age teachers of today who are leading millions into new age false doctrine and causing people to create their own paths to God. It is all a lie and heresy! I strongly suggest you repent of your sin of unbelief and believe Jesus Christ, the Son of God died for our sins. Anyone who rejects this truth will be rejected by God because God showed no mercy on Jesus at the cross when He died on our behalf so likewise will the same be bestowed upon you. If you value your soul and everlasting life, repent and believe upon Jesus and His finished work at the cross for your salvation.
I hope no one believes the heresy you believe and have spoken here on these forums. JESUS CHRIST died for our sins and the entire bible is the word of God. How dare you call the authors of the old testament ignorant. How dare you insult God and Jesus by denying He died for our sins. How dare you call yourself a Christian when only those who believe in the finished work of Christ are children of God. Every event in the bible is consistent with each other and none of it contradicts itself. You believe the only books that belong are the ones where Jesus spoke in. You refuse to believe in Jesus being the lamb of God! ANYONE who believes in a Jesus that did not die for our sins is part of the great apostasy. How dare you say me and those who believe likewise are the great apostasy. You have been mislead and created a God in your mind that is not of the gospel just like the new age teachers of today who are leading millions into new age false doctrine and causing people to create their own paths to God. It is all a lie and heresy! I strongly suggest you repent of your sin of unbelief and believe Jesus Christ, the Son of God died for our sins. Anyone who rejects this truth will be rejected by God because God showed no mercy on Jesus at the cross when He died on our behalf so likewise will the same be bestowed upon you. If you value your soul and everlasting life, repent and believe upon Jesus and His finished work at the cross for your salvation.
AMEN! Tell it like it is! Perhaps someday he will open his mind and heart to Jesus Christ.
Try reading more carefullly. YOU have the conditions of the apostasy backwards. In the apostasy it is the majority who believe the apostate (false and perverted) Gospel of the anti-Christ. That is the situation today 2000+ "latter days" from the death of Christ. There is nothing to herald. It has been heralded for 2000+ years. The mainstream Christian churches TODAY ARE the prophesied majority great anti-Christ apostasy . . . claiming to represent Christ and His Gospel. I and those who believe the original Gospel of Christ and His unambiguous example of God's love are the few. Come out from her (Babylon) and join me and those who agree with me . . . and know Christ and the Father..
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Originally Posted by romans519
I hope no one believes the heresy you believe and have spoken here on these forums. JESUS CHRIST died for our sins and the entire bible is the word of God.
The kind of justice that God employs is not of the human variety. Jesus Christ died because of (for) our sins and He is the Word of God . . . not some books compiled by men that contain USEFUL inspirations from God interpreted by primitive savages.
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How dare you call the authors of the old testament ignorant.
Ignorant does not mean unintelligent. Our primitive ancestors were woefully ignorant. It is a simple fact.
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How dare you insult God and Jesus by denying He died for our sins.
I do not insult God or Jesus. I love them dearly. I deny nothing. I just understand the real reason He died for our sins . . . not our primitive ancestors' superstitious and savage reasons.
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How dare you call yourself a Christian when only those who believe in the finished work of Christ are children of God.
How dare you usurp God's prerogative in judging who is or is not Christian? I follow Christ and believe He saved us from eternal separation from God. I would tread very carefully. I believe His salvation work is finished and we have nothing to do with it. Sanctification under His Love and guidance is our task.
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Every event in the bible is consistent with each other and none of it contradicts itself.
The OT is under the veil of ignorance (blind minds) and many passages and descriptions contradict the true nature of God as revealed BY CHRIST.
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You believe the only books that belong are the ones where Jesus spoke in. You refuse to believe in Jesus being the lamb of God! ANYONE who believes in a Jesus that did not die for our sins is part of the great apostasy. How dare you say me and those who believe likewise are the great apostasy.
2000+ years is way beyond the "latter days" as envisioned by 1st century people. When the apostate Gospel was formalized some 300-400 years after the death of Christ . . . that was already the "latter days" in prophesy. The anti-Christ Gospel (read: anti-love and mercy) based on the OT descriptions of Jehovah (YHWH) . . . NOT CHRIST . . . has spread over 2000+ years to the majority as prophesied. The majority are the ones who accept the false anti-Christ Gospel of eternal torment and damnation.
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You have been mislead and created a God in your mind that is not of the gospel just like the new age teachers of today who are leading millions into new age false doctrine and causing people to create their own paths to God.
I have nothing to do with any "New Age" bogeyman that troubles you. I am a Christian and I follow Christ's commands to His disciples to "love God and each other" daily and repent when I don't. How do you follow Christ?
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It is all a lie and heresy! I strongly suggest you repent of your sin of unbelief and believe Jesus Christ, the Son of God died for our sins.
I keep telling you I not only believe but I know Christ died for our sins . . . just not in the way YOU do.
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Anyone who rejects this truth will be rejected by God because God showed no mercy on Jesus at the cross when He died on our behalf so likewise will the same be bestowed upon you.
Our loving Father is not a Godfather who exacts vengeance as payment for anything . . . the way humans do. Human justice is vengeful and punitive. God's justice is merciful and transforming.
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If you value your soul and everlasting life, repent and believe upon Jesus and His finished work at the cross for your salvation.
I repent daily as Christ instructed His disciples to do. You might want to look to your own life and stop judging mine or anyone else's.
Last edited by MysticPhD; 07-09-2013 at 09:26 AM..
Romans and Mystic, you both have lost sight of the real goal. Mercy is what we are all hoping for, not justice. If God meted out justice all of us would be lost.
While I disagree with you Mystic, regarding after life damnation for those who ignore accepting Christ as Savior, it is not given to me--or to Romans519, or to anyone else--the right to tell God what He may or may not do at the final judgment. Perhaps he will choose to follow the parable which Jesus told about teh man hiring some workers to work in his fields early in the morning, others in the early afternoon, and still others in the late afternoon. In the end he paid each the same.
The view of many "traditional" Christians is that God is playing with people like they are clay, and when He is unhappy with one, He just mashes it up and starts a new one. That's kind of the feeling I get from reading 519's comments. But it's not what Jesus revealed in His life and words. And while I believe there is great value in the Old Testament, there is no two ways about it, while Jesus may have said He didn't come to change the Law, He certainly did so numerous times. The most obvious being when He said, "You have heard it said 'an eye for an eye,' but I say unto you----". If that didn't change previous Mosaic Law then someone is wearing blinders.
The difficulty for followers of Paul's writing is that fundamentalists wish to glorifiy his writings when he speaks about treating the "ugly" people of our society with disdain, but they are uncomfortable with "grace alone" for salvation (not following the ten commandments). For many Universalists the opposite is true, while they wish to glorify Paul writings saying that Jesus has accomplished it all and nothing else remains, they are uncomfortable with the demands for living a moral, good life.
Jesus, however, appears to have seen Himself as a propitiation for sins and as an example for living a just life, by being kind and compassionate to the unwanted in our society. He never spoke hatefully of homosexuals, He partied with tax collectors (thieves of that day who overcharged and put the difference in their pockets), He not only drank wine, He made dozens of gallons of it. But in all this He was trying to point every person to a closer walk with God by exhibiting a deep concern and compassion for those scorned by others.
While I do not hold with the apparent scorn that many fundamentalists have with goodness and kindheartedness being shown to murderers, rapists, pornographers, homosexuals, thieves and others, neither do I think they should be held in scorn because their eyes are not yet opened to what it is to have a closer walk with God. And, Mystic, if we are going to try to live for God anyway, so what if there will be eternal damnation for some? Isn't it our job to be an example that would make others want to feast with God in heaven and avoid that situation?
Churches in the whole, however, Romans519, have long ago left their true love of serving God by showing mercy and goodness to others. I remember well, going to a small church in Denver which had lost half it's membership because the pastor saw fit to begin a bus ministry to go downtown each Sunday and pick up homeless people, bring them to church for service, and feed them a meal afterwards. The big Baptist church about 100 yards away had the gall to tell the pastor to make sure those folks didn't come over to the Baptist parking lot because they were concerned about the cars of their members being broken into.
Which church followed Jesus more closely? Which one knew that mercy, not "justice" was what they needed to rain down from heaven?
No matter what ones "views" of the Bible are, the Bible didn't die on the cross, the Bible didn't bleed, and, if you are going to have a Christ centered life, His words should be the most important, His life should be the better example, His attitude toward others should be the one we strive for. Even Christ's sacrifice for us is an example of the sacrifice we should make for those who, in our opinion, do not deserve that sacrifice.
Reading some of these threads and the convuluted ways people try to hold up their view of the Scriptures or the indwelling of the Spirit of God makes me think of George Eliot's --- "There's folks'ud stand on their heads and then say the fault was in their boots."
Romans and Mystic, you both have lost sight of the real goal. Mercy is what we are all hoping for, not justice. If God meted out justice all of us would be lost.
While I disagree with you Mystic, regarding after life damnation for those who ignore accepting Christ as Savior, it is not given to me--or to Romans519, or to anyone else--the right to tell God what He may or may not do at the final judgment. Perhaps he will choose to follow the parable which Jesus told about teh man hiring some workers to work in his fields early in the morning, others in the early afternoon, and still others in the late afternoon. In the end he paid each the same.
<snip>
And, Mystic, if we are going to try to live for God anyway, so what if there will be eternal damnation for some? Isn't it our job to be an example that would make others want to feast with God in heaven and avoid that situation?
I have not lost sight of the goal, Warden . . . the thread is about justice and I am reacting to the abomination of justice that eternal damnation represents for a finite life. You do not disagree with me so much as you disagree with God as revealed by Jesus. I have no issue with reaping what we sow . . . but eternal damnation can never be sowed in a finite life. I could not live for or want anything to do with a God who would do that to even one human being. Fortunately, I don't have to because the God Jesus revealed would never do it to any of His children. God IS love and according to 1 Cor 13 and the Sermon on the Mount . . . eternal damnation is not what God is all about.
I have not lost sight of the goal, Warden . . . the thread is about justice and I am reacting to the abomination of justice that eternal damnation represents for a finite life. You do not disagree with me so much as you disagree with God as revealed by Jesus. I have no issue with reaping what we sow . . . but eternal damnation can never be sowed in a finite life. I could not live for or want anything to do with a God who would do that to even one human being. Fortunately, I don't have to because the God Jesus revealed would never do it to any of His children. God IS love and according to 1 Cor 13 and the Sermon on the Mount . . . eternal damnation is not what God is all about.
You have to ignore a lot of what Jesus said to believe that.
I have not lost sight of the goal, Warden . . . the thread is about justice and I am reacting to the abomination of justice that eternal damnation represents for a finite life. You do not disagree with me so much as you disagree with God as revealed by Jesus. I have no issue with reaping what we sow . . . but eternal damnation can never be sowed in a finite life. I could not live for or want anything to do with a God who would do that to even one human being. Fortunately, I don't have to because the God Jesus revealed would never do it to any of His children. God IS love and according to 1 Cor 13 and the Sermon on the Mount . . . eternal damnation is not what God is all about.
Matt 23:14
But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretense make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
So Jesus believes there is not only damnation but "greater" damnation.
Speaking again to the Pharisees as hypocrites who have omitted the weightier matters of the law---
Matt 23: 33
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
In speaking to His disciples, a crowd of people, and scribes who claimed He was possessed by Beelzebub--
Mark 3: 28-29
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness but is in danger of eternal damnation.
and Luke's version of the same--
Luke 12:10
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
Please note the bolding is mine.
This is simply to point out that Jesus certainly believed that people could suffer damnation--whether that is a fiery hell or simply separation from the Creator, I don't have any special insight, just a few ideas that I'll keep to myself.
And yes, that in the minds of many is the final "justice" of God. I prefer to let God be the final Arbitrator of right and wrong. If He chooses to forgive everybody--and I mean EVERYBODY--then glory to His name. If He chooses to separate some from His presence, then glory to His name. The problem too many of us have is that we try to put our OWN views of justice into God's will for us. Whether we do this by an over emphasis on Jesus' love and compassion, or by clinging to our personal interpretation of the Scriptures, it usurps God's authority to be God.
There will be half a dozen people claiming to know the will of God. If any of them were doing the will of God as much as they claim to know it, none of them, including me, would be spending time on this thread.
Jesus' example for us to follow is not to enforce "justice" in the world, but to practice mercy and kindness, even as He did. The salvation He provided by grace still involves a great deal of "doing."
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I want mercy, not justice
