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So like I said before, anyone who wants to examine the evidence why URs believe that most of the early Christians believed in UR can do so here. http://hellbusters.8m.com/updcontents.html
Not some. Irenaeus wrote of the unity of the faith of the church throughout the whole world. Wherever the church had been established at that time, the rule of faith included the belief in everlasting condemnation, or as Tertullian put it, 'unending and without break' as shown in post #21.
Irenaeus, a church father who lived from 130 to 200 AD. wrote the following concerning the unity of the faith of the church. [Against Heresies, Book 1, Chapter 10, section 1.]
Chapter X.—Unity of the faith of the Church throughout the whole world.
1. The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations2786of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father “to gather all things in one,”2787 and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, “every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess”2788 to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send “spiritual wickednesses,”2789 and 331 the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory.
[Bolded mine] ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Again, this may be where "Everlasting" was translated from aionios incorrectly or maybe correctly but with etymology steering the modern meaning into error.
So they remain in hate. So again the doctrine of hell is just a relocation plan with some torment thrown in. Meanwhile they get to keep hating (sinning) for the rest of eternity. So God really never destroys the source of sin in this scenario. The hate would remain forever.
The "weeping and gnashing of teeth" doesn't magically disappear just because of some hocus pocus universal escape clause simply because of one's mental instability.
How else can it be said nicely to say than you're deceived despite God expressed word 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and no matter how many links that the good 'ol universalists conjure up, it will be shown as clearly when Jesus say:
" Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ "
The vomit of UR lies will never change "but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."
The "weeping and gnashing of teeth" doesn't magically disappear just because of some hocus pocus universal escape clause simply because of one's mental instability.
How else can it be said nicely to say than you're deceived despite God expressed word 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 and no matter how many links that the good 'ol universalists conjure up, it will be shown as clearly when Jesus say:
" Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ "
The vomit of UR lies will never change "but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them."
So to you destruction of sinners does not mean ridding them of sin, correct? But Jesus came not for the purpose of tormenting sinners but to destroy sin itself:
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
Now under the doctrine of mainstream Hell, that doesn't happen. Yet Jesus said if one is even angry with their brother they are guilty. So under the doctrine of Hell is fails to erradicate sin. How do you explain the fact that Jesus said He came to destroy it and yet the doctrine you support not only doesn't seem to address it but gives sinners the capacity to do it for the rest of eternity?
Again, this may be where "Everlasting" was translated from aionios incorrectly or maybe correctly but with etymology steering the modern meaning into error.
Do you not understand from comparing what Tertullian wrote in 'The Prescription Against Heretics' Chapter 13, with what he said in 'Apology' 18:3 that by 'everlasting' (and I don't know if he used the word 'aionios' or some other word) he meant unending and without break? I posted this in post #21. I'll post it again below. Read it.
Unending!!!
[quote=Mike555;30383433]Let's look at what Tertullian wrote again, and see what he meant by the wicked being condemned to everlasting fire.
Tertullian was an early church father who lived from 150-60 to 225 AD. Here is what he wrote concerning the rule of faith (that which was taught by Christ). [The Prescription Against Heretics, Chapter 13]
CHAP. XIII.--SUMMARY OF THE CREED, OR RULE OF FAITH. NO QUESTIONS EVER RAISED ABOUT IT BY BELIEVERS. HERETICS ENCOURAGE AND pERPETUATE THOUGHT INDEPENDENT OF CHRIST'S TEACHING.
Now, with regard to this rule of faith--that we may from this point
acknowledge what it is which we defend--it is, you must know, that which prescribes the belief that there is one only God, and that He is none other than the Creator of the world, who produced all things out of nothing through His own Word, first of all sent forth; that this Word is called His Son, and, under the name of God, was seen "in diverse manners" by the patriarchs, heard at all times in the prophets, at last brought down by the Spirit and Power of the Father into the Virgin Mary, was made flesh in her womb, and, being born of her, went forth as Jesus Christ; thenceforth He preached the new law and the new promise of the kingdom of heaven, worked miracles; having been crucified, He rose again the third day; (then) having ascended into the heavens, He sat at the right hand of the Father; sent instead of Himself the Power of the Holy Ghost to lead such as believe; will come with glory to take the saints to the enjoyment of everlasting life and of the heavenly promises, and to condemn the wicked to everlasting fire, after the resurrection of both these classes shall have happened, together with the restoration of their flesh. This rule, as it will be proved, was taught by Christ, and raises amongst ourselves no other questions than those which heresies introduce, and which make men heretics. [Bolded mine] Tertullian (Roberts-Donaldson)
So what did Tertullian mean by the wicked being condemned to everlasting fire? The answer is found in Apology 18:3
CHAP. XVIII.
But, that we might attain an ampler and more authoritative knowledge at once of Himself, and of His counsels and will, God has added a written revelation for the behoof of every one whose heart is set on seeking Him, that seeking he may find, and finding believe, and believing obey. For from the first He sent messengers into the world,--men whose stainless righteousness made them worthy to know the Most High, and to reveal Him,--men abundantly endowed with the Holy Spirit, that they might proclaim that there is one God only who made all things, who formed man from the dust of the ground (for He is the true Prometheus who gave order to the world by arranging the seasons and their course),--these have further set before us the proofs He has given of His majesty in H judgments by floods and fires, the rules appointed by Him for securing His favour, as well as the retribution in store for the ignoring, forsaking and keeping them, as being about at the end of all to adjudge His worshippers to everlasting life, and the wicked to the doom of fire at once without ending and without break, raising up again all the dead from the beginning, reforming and renewing them with the object of awarding either recompense. [bolded mine] Tertullian (Roberts-Donaldson)
By everlasting condemnation then, Tertullian meant without ending and without break. So much for the aionios argument.
By everlasting condemnation then, Tertullian meant without ending and without break. So much for the aionios argument.
So much for what ETers believe.
Now here is what URs believe.
Take yer pick. I did.
“The definition given in THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) is helpful. Concerning aionios we read, “In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . .” (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ. The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ’s cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28).” Dean Hough
Now here is what URs believe.
Take yer pick. I did.
“The definition given in THE VOCABULARY OF THE GREEK TESTAMENT (edited by James Hope Moulton and George Milligan) is helpful. Concerning aionios we read, “In general, the word depicts that of which the horizon is not in view . . .” (p.16). If the horizon of the extermination spoken of by Paul in 2 Thessalonians 1:9 is simply not in view, then we can see that what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15:22 can truly occur. The same all who are dying in Adam, which includes some who incur eonian extermination, can indeed eventually be vivified in Christ. The Bible, in fact, does not speak of judgment and condemnation, death and destruction, hades and Gehenna, or any of these serious consequences of sin, as unending. It may refer to them as not having the end in view, but none of these fearful works of God can keep Him from achieving His will (1Tim.2:4); reconciling all through the blood of Christ’s cross (Col.1:20, and becoming All in all (1 Cor.15:28).” Dean Hough
I take the truth from Jesus over Satan's stooges like Hough
I take the truth from Jesus over Satan's stooges like Hough
"The truth from Jesus" as URs understand it.
Christ's scriptural mission: 'And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour oftheworld' (1John 4:14).
I worship a Jesus Who will be completely successful in accomplishing the reason why His Father sent Him.
Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment in the lake of fire?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!"
Do you not understand from comparing what Tertullian wrote in 'The Prescription Against Heretics' Chapter 13, with what he said in 'Apology' 18:3 that by 'everlasting' (and I don't know if he used the word 'aionios' or some other word) he meant unending and without break? I posted this in post #21. I'll post it again below. Read it.
Unending!!!
Let's look at what Tertullian wrote again, and see what he meant by the wicked being condemned to everlasting fire.
Tertullian was an early church father who lived from 150-60 to 225 AD. Here is what he wrote concerning the rule of faith (that which was taught by Christ). [The Prescription Against Heretics, Chapter 13]
CHAP. XIII.--SUMMARY OF THE CREED, OR RULE OF FAITH. NO QUESTIONS EVER RAISED ABOUT IT BY BELIEVERS. HERETICS ENCOURAGE AND pERPETUATE THOUGHT INDEPENDENT OF CHRIST'S TEACHING.
Now, with regard to this rule of faith--that we may from this point
acknowledge what it is which we defend--it is, you must know, that which prescribes the belief that there is one only God, and that He is none other than the Creator of the world, who produced all things out of nothing through His own Word, first of all sent forth; that this Word is called His Son, and, under the name of God, was seen "in diverse manners" by the patriarchs, heard at all times in the prophets, at last brought down by the Spirit and Power of the Father into the Virgin Mary, was made flesh in her womb, and, being born of her, went forth as Jesus Christ; thenceforth He preached the new law and the new promise of the kingdom of heaven, worked miracles; having been crucified, He rose again the third day; (then) having ascended into the heavens, He sat at the right hand of the Father; sent instead of Himself the Power of the Holy Ghost to lead such as believe; will come with glory to take the saints to the enjoyment of everlasting life and of the heavenly promises, and to condemn the wicked to everlasting fire, after the resurrection of both these classes shall have happened, together with the restoration of their flesh. This rule, as it will be proved, was taught by Christ, and raises amongst ourselves no other questions than those which heresies introduce, and which make men heretics. [Bolded mine] Tertullian (Roberts-Donaldson)
So what did Tertullian mean by the wicked being condemned to everlasting fire? The answer is found in Apology 18:3
CHAP. XVIII.
But, that we might attain an ampler and more authoritative knowledge at once of Himself, and of His counsels and will, God has added a written revelation for the behoof of every one whose heart is set on seeking Him, that seeking he may find, and finding believe, and believing obey. For from the first He sent messengers into the world,--men whose stainless righteousness made them worthy to know the Most High, and to reveal Him,--men abundantly endowed with the Holy Spirit, that they might proclaim that there is one God only who made all things, who formed man from the dust of the ground (for He is the true Prometheus who gave order to the world by arranging the seasons and their course),--these have further set before us the proofs He has given of His majesty in H judgments by floods and fires, the rules appointed by Him for securing His favour, as well as the retribution in store for the ignoring, forsaking and keeping them, as being about at the end of all to adjudge His worshippers to everlasting life, and the wicked to the doom of fire at once without ending and without break, raising up again all the dead from the beginning, reforming and renewing them with the object of awarding either recompense. [bolded mine] Tertullian (Roberts-Donaldson)
By everlasting condemnation then, Tertullian meant without ending and without break. So much for the aionios argument.
I don't think we can reach that conclusion without knowing if anionios was translated improperly to eternal or everlasting. However, I believe that everlasting used to mean to last beyond the present age.
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Take yer pick. I did.
