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Old 07-06-2013, 06:49 AM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
3,147 posts, read 2,741,256 times
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ARMINIAN BELIEF VERSUS CALVINIST BELIEF VERSUS UNIVERSAL SALVATION BELIEF

ARMINIAN BELIEF - It's as if God says
“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will either annihilate you, or sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment.”

Christ's apparent mission: To save from annihilation or eternal torment only those who are lucky enough to hear about Jesus before they die, and also have enough good sense to properly cooperate with Him before they die.

CALVINIST BELIEF - It's as if God says
"Since there is nothing you can do about it because you are totally depraved and you are not one of the elect, it is obvious that I created most of you for the purpose of either annihilating you or letting you suffer eternal torment. However, I am going to unconditionally choose a few of you to go to heaven where you will be happy forever."

Christ's apparent mission: To let everyone be annihilated, or suffer eternal torment except the unconditionally elected few that He rescues by His irresistible grace.


UNIVERSAL RECONCILIATION BELIEF (mine) – God says
“Sooner or later, because of what Christ accomplished by His death and resurrection, I am going to save all of you from everything from which you need to be saved, including your stubborn will.”

Christ's scriptural mission: 'And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world' (1John 4:14).

I worship a Jesus Who will be completely successful in accomplishing the reason why His Father sent Him.


Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment in the lake of fire?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!"
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Old 07-06-2013, 03:16 PM
 
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All three of these vision of God blessing are all negative in the interpretation , even though the Armenian belief is true you should look as this blessing is a good thing , as salvation of God is for those who admire God and chose to be blessed by God , and chose to go and turn toward God in favor of God and His purpose , See people saved loose the fear of going to hell if they had any before , But the Armenian vision is very true ................. the Calvin vision would have converts questioning whether God ideas of Calvinism is whole , as you would believe God heaven is not complete and is only a small place for small minds ... So many people of this belief must have been very young when they first went there as the ideas of only a few will be save is a strange ideas and not whole in thinking , as to believe the deception is real .................... Universalism is for the fallen belief which rejects Jesus Christ and His authorship of repentance of sin and turn from this world to be saved , where God would usurp his son at the last day and save everyone is not a whole ideas and eternal speculation which itchy ears would like to believe , as the people who believe change the character of Jesus Christ and remove the justice of His authority and believe in a strange God who does not condone sin ...................then there is JW who also reject the character of Lord Jesus Christ and change the character of Christ and reject the Holy Spirit and the blessing of the Spirit of God for salvation , and believe that salvation is never there until the very last day of the great Judgment , where even Jesus promised the disciple of Christ to stand with Him in Judgment of the last day, which would not make sense they would already be judged ..Be blessed ...
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Old 07-06-2013, 03:36 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,195 posts, read 14,086,044 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
Christ was prophesied to take away the sin of the world (Jn. 1:29), so how then can a sinless world suffer everlasting punishment in the lake of fire?! How absurd! Christ is the Saviour of the world (Jn. 4:42; 1Jn. 4:14), and He will save it!"
Christ takes away the penalty of the sins for those who posses Him.
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Old 07-06-2013, 03:40 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hljc View Post
Universalism is for the fallen belief which rejects Jesus Christ and His authorship of repentance of sin and turn from this world to be saved , where God would usurp his son at the last day and save everyone is not a whole ideas and eternal speculation which itchy ears would like to believe. Be blessed ...
Sometimes believers in eternal torment and annihilation like to say that 2Tim. 4:3&4 about a time coming when people will have “itchy ears” and will turn to believing myths or fables, refers to believers in universal salvation.
But I think it refers to believers in eternal torment and annihilation instead because most Christians closest to the time of Jesus believed in universal salvation. ETers and ANers like to have their itching ears scratched by listening to sermons based on the myth or fable that only people who believe like they do before they die are going to avoid suffering forever in “hell” or be annihilated.

Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
http://hellbusters.8m.com/updcontents.html
The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.

The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.”

And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
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Old 07-06-2013, 04:21 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,195 posts, read 14,086,044 times
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Let me give it shot.

God says...

Although I created man in my image and gave him everything, he still chose to reject Me by doing the one thing I asked him not to do. Because of who I am, I must separate Myself from him and all mankind born through him because they could not handle My presence now that sin is in them. At the proper time, I will send my only begotten Son to earth to fulfill my commandments. And even though He will not sin, He will pay the penalty as though He sinned. He will then return to Me. Anyone who chooses to believe that I sent My Son to earth to pay the penalty of sin, we will abide with him/her on the request of My Son as long as the Son lives (which is forever).

Christ's mission: To obey the Father's plan to His earthly death and to intercede to the Father for those who believe in Him.


Not perfect, but I was trying to keep it brief.
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Old 07-06-2013, 05:12 PM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
15,540 posts, read 6,992,023 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Let me give it shot.

God says...

Although I created man in my image and gave him everything, he still chose to reject Me by doing the one thing I asked him not to do. Because of who I am, I must separate Myself from him and all mankind born through him because they could not handle My presence now that sin is in them. At the proper time, I will send my only begotten Son to earth to fulfill my commandments. And even though He will not sin, He will pay the penalty as though He sinned. He will then return to Me. Anyone who chooses to believe that I sent My Son to earth to pay the penalty of sin, we will abide with him/her on the request of My Son as long as the Son lives (which is forever).

Christ's mission: To obey the Father's plan to His earthly death and to intercede to the Father for those who believe in Him.


Not perfect, but I was trying to keep it brief.
Not bad though. Lessee, sentence two change to "they have chosen to feel separate from me because of their sin" At the end of sentence 4 add "thereby nullifying Law as a basis for judging men." Change 5 to "anyone who choose to follow the Way He outlines will know that he is reconciled to me and lives in love."

Hey! I LIKE it!
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Old 07-06-2013, 06:12 PM
 
20,290 posts, read 15,633,754 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rodgertutt View Post
Sometimes believers in eternal torment and annihilation like to say that 2Tim. 4:3&4 about a time coming when people will have “itchy ears” and will turn to believing myths or fables, refers to believers in universal salvation.
But I think it refers to believers in eternal torment and annihilation instead because most Christians closest to the time of Jesus believed in universal salvation. ETers and ANers like to have their itching ears scratched by listening to sermons based on the myth or fable that only people who believe like they do before they die are going to avoid suffering forever in “hell” or be annihilated.

Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years
http://hellbusters.8m.com/updcontents.html
The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.

The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.”

And they were reading the Bible in its original language!
The claim that most Christians closest to the time of Jesus believed in universal salvation is not true.

Tertullian was an early church father who lived from 150-60 to 225 AD. Here is what he wrote concerning the rule of faith (that which was taught by Christ). [The Prescription Against Heretics, Chapter 13]
CHAP. XIII.--SUMMARY OF THE CREED, OR RULE OF FAITH. NO QUESTIONS EVER RAISED ABOUT IT BY BELIEVERS. HERETICS ENCOURAGE AND pERPETUATE THOUGHT INDEPENDENT OF CHRIST'S TEACHING.

Now, with regard to this rule of faith--that we may from this point

acknowledge what it is which we defend--it is, you must know, that which prescribes the belief that there is one only God, and that He is none other than the Creator of the world, who produced all things out of nothing through His own Word, first of all sent forth; that this Word is called His Son, and, under the name of God, was seen "in diverse manners" by the patriarchs, heard at all times in the prophets, at last brought down by the Spirit and Power of the Father into the Virgin Mary, was made flesh in her womb, and, being born of her, went forth as Jesus Christ; thenceforth He preached the new law and the new promise of the kingdom of heaven, worked miracles; having been crucified, He rose again the third day; (then) having ascended into the heavens, He sat at the right hand of the Father; sent instead of Himself the Power of the Holy Ghost to lead such as believe; will come with glory to take the saints to the enjoyment of everlasting life and of the heavenly promises, and to condemn the wicked to everlasting fire, after the resurrection of both these classes shall have happened, together with the restoration of their flesh. This rule, as it will be proved, was taught by Christ, and raises amongst ourselves no other questions than those which heresies introduce, and which make men heretics. [Bolded mine] Tertullian (Roberts-Donaldson)
Irenaeus, a church father who lived from 130 to 200 AD. wrote the following concerning the unity of the faith of the church. [Against Heresies, Book 1, Chapter 10, section 1.]
Chapter X.—Unity of the faith of the Church throughout the whole world.

1. The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations2786of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father “to gather all things in one,”2787 and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, “every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess”2788 to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send “spiritual wickednesses,”2789 and 331 the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory.
[Bolded mine] ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
Both Tertullian and Irenaeus who lived in the 2nd century write that the church at that time believed that the wicked were condemned to everlasting fire. Therefore, while there may have been some who believed in Universalism at that early time, it was not until later that the heresy of Universalism gained more adherents. The claim promoted by Universalists that Universalism was the prevalant belief during the first 500 years of Christianity is fraudulent.


The author of the website you posted >> Chapter 7 - Three Gnostic Sects in his attempt to defend Universalism makes an appeal to the Gnostics who were opponents of orthodox Christianity. He mentions Basilides who was the leader of one of the sects of Gnosticism. According to Irenaeus, Basilides denied that Christ was actually crucified.
Against Heresies, Book I, Chapter 24, section 4.
He appeared, then, on earth as a man, to the nations of these powers, and wrought miracles. Wherefore he did not himself suffer death, but Simon, a certain man of Cyrene, being compelled, bore the cross in his stead; so that this latter being transfigured by him, that he might be thought to be Jesus, was crucified, through ignorance and error, while Jesus himself received the form of Simon, and, standing by, laughed at them. ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus - Christian Classics Ethereal Library
According to Irenaeus then, Basilides taught that it was actually Simon of Cyrene, (who had carried Jesus' cross), who having been lent Jesus' form was actually crucified instead of Jesus, and that Jesus who appeared to be Simon was standing in the crowd having a good laugh. And you would give credence to the beliefs of the Gnostics about the fate of men after death?
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Old 07-06-2013, 06:20 PM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,195 posts, read 14,086,044 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Not bad though. Lessee, sentence two change to "they have chosen to feel separate from me because of their sin" At the end of sentence 4 add "thereby nullifying Law as a basis for judging men." Change 5 to "anyone who choose to follow the Way He outlines will know that he is reconciled to me and lives in love."

Hey! I LIKE it!
Only #4 is adequate.

#2 - God initiated the separation. People feel separated from God because they ARE separated from God - at least until they receive Christ for themselves.

#5 - Changes to a salvation of works.

Now if you don't believe the Bible to be mostly literal, then I guess you can make up what you want.

Feel free to modify the OP's suggestions. I just didn't believe there was a direct fit for what the Bible represents - so I made an attempt.
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Old 07-06-2013, 08:18 PM
 
Location: Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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Post Let those who are interested decide for themselves about that

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The claim that most Christians closest to the time of Jesus believed in universal salvation is not true.
Let those who are interested decide for themselves about that.
http://hellbusters.8m.com/updcontents.html
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Old 07-07-2013, 01:48 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,114 posts, read 19,958,111 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Let me give it shot.

God says...

Although I created man in my image and gave him everything, he still chose to reject Me by doing the one thing I asked him not to do. Because of who I am, I must separate Myself from him and all mankind born through him because they could not handle My presence now that sin is in them. At the proper time, I will send my only begotten Son to earth to fulfill my commandments. And even though He will not sin, He will pay the penalty as though He sinned. He will then return to Me. Anyone who chooses to believe that I sent My Son to earth to pay the penalty of sin, we will abide with him/her on the request of My Son as long as the Son lives (which is forever).

Christ's mission: To obey the Father's plan to His earthly death and to intercede to the Father for those who believe in Him.


Not perfect, but I was trying to keep it brief.
Where in scripture does it state that God separated himself from man?. I am 100% convinced that man believed/convinced himself seperate from God and hence lived his life without God in his world,and we all know how that pans out.
They won't tell you this in church today.
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