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[2] Jesus (being God) can read the heart of a person. Jesus' reply was in response to what he saw in the rich man what he valued most in his heart... which was his wealth and possessions.
Jesus taught faith alone ...
"Faith alone" ... when the audience was like that of the German theologian, Dietrich Bonhoeffer Luke 7:50
Jesus said to the woman, “Your faithhassavedyou; go in peace.”
Matthew 9:2
Some men brought to him a paralyzed man, lying on a mat. When Jesus saw theirfaith, he said to the man, “Take heart, son; your sins are forgiven.”
Romans 1:17
For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”
Romans 3:22
This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.
There is no difference between Jew and Gentile,
We do not contribute to being saved as false teachers like German theologian, Dietrich Bonhoeffer wrote.
John 6:22-29
Then they asked him, “What must we do to do the works God requires?”
[SIZE=2] Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”[/SIZE]
Works must be understood and be put into proper relationship to faith. German theologian, Dietrich Bonhoeffer, by his statement is making Jesus a co-savior ...
But however ... works are the reflection of faith. That's the point of what James was writing about.
The Christian, because of the Holy Spirit living in him, will do works.
First, I mistakenly wrote the "cost of salvation" when Nateswift is certainly correct that it is the "cost of discipleship." I was reading Bonhoffer's collected writings called "Ethics" and I worded reference to his earlier writing as "salvation" when Bonhoeffer was always concerned with discipleship following salvation.
Very interesting, Twin, that you pass judgment on a man, Bonhoeffer, who named Christ as His Savior, won over some of the German guards holding him as a prisoner, and went to his death for opposing the unethical practices of the Nazi regime. May God not judge you in a like manner.
Second, if "faith" and faith alone were the great message of Jesus, why did He not proclaim it in Matthew 25? He began telling parables such as a man giving his servants different amounts of money and expecting them to DO something with the money so that it would grow in his absence. The one who only had "faith" without works wasn't even called faithful. That which he had was taken and given to another. Jesus doesn't want us to come back to Him empty-handed!!! And that is works!
At the end of Matt 25 he tells of the King saying I was a stranger, hungry, thirsty, naked, sick and in prison and you did NOTHING!! And those people said, Lord, when did we see you like this? And he replied, Inasmuch as you did it not to the least of these, you did it not to me! And these shall go away into everlasting punishment.
Excuse me, but why wasn't their faith enough? Why were they expected to provide food and drink for those who thirst and hunger, take in strangers, visit those sick and/or in prison? And if they didn't DO that, they were cast into everlasting punishment.
And if you read very carefully the entire chapter of Matthew 23, you might be looking into a mirror when you read about those who can quote the scripture very well, but fail to live (to DO) the life that those scriptures point to. He warned others to listen to the words of the scribes and pharisees, but not to DO as they did.
Faith without works is dead. And those who practice it without living the life of works with the love of Jesus behind those works, will find themselves falling short of the glory of God.
"Not of all of us can do great things. But we can do small things with great love."
Mother Teresa (another false teacher in your mind?)
Not the best example since Lot's wife dies in the process and his daughters salvation is certainly in question based upon their amoral actions later on -- getting their father drunk so he would have sex with them and father children on them, etc.
Gotta love the character assassination to try and make a point...
Focus on what God did - which is rescue Lot without his input.
I think many of you have lost sight of what God's role is in salvation and His character in carrying out His promise.
The foolishness of those who think that any believer in Jesus Christ can either lose or walk away from his eternal salvation. Salvation is a free gift. You do not work to receive a gift, and you don't work to keep the gift.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
While Paul is summarizing God's dealings with Israel and with the Gentiles in Romans 11:28-29, the principle of God's gifts and calling being irrevocable applies to individual salvation.
Romans 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29]for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
At the Cross Jesus accomplished all the work that needed to be done to make salvation available to those who believe on Him. Salvation is by grace though faith in Christ Jesus.
Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Our eternal salvation is based strictly on having the imputed righteousness of God at the moment of faith in Christ Jesus. How foolish then so as to imagine that you must add your own works of righteousness to the perfect righteousness of God which you already possess through faith in Christ in order to retain the eternal life you have as a gift!!!
The foolishness of those who think that any believer in Jesus Christ can either lose or walk away from his eternal salvation. Salvation is a free gift. You do not work to receive a gift, and you don't work to keep the gift.
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
While Paul is summarizing God's dealings with Israel and with the Gentiles in Romans 11:28-29, the principle of God's gifts and calling being irrevocable applies to individual salvation.
Romans 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29]for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
At the Cross Jesus accomplished all the work that needed to be done to make salvation available to those who believe on Him. Salvation is by grace though faith in Christ Jesus.
Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
Our eternal salvation is based strictly on having the imputed righteousness of God at the moment of faith in Christ Jesus. How foolish then so as to imagine that you must add your own works of righteousness to the perfect righteousness of God which you already possess through faith in Christ in order to retain the eternal life you have as a gift!!!
You are falling into the church designed trap of holding the great church organizer, Paul, as an authority as opposed to what Jesus said. His writings certainly grew the church--and it basically wiped out the work of Peter, James and John who had walked and talked and recorded what Jesus actually said. Paul added a different interpretation.
Jesus' last sermon in Matthew 25 indicates that faith is displayed in works, and He did so with more than one example. For years I held to the exact theology you quoted above. But it is irreparably flawed when compared to the examples that Jesus gave again and again.
I am not saying that works gets one into heaven, but faith without works is not faith. How can anyone short of a deathbed confession say they do not have the opportunity, almost daily, to provide love and kindness to those who, in the opinion of many, do not deserve it? --- They can't. And that is exactly the example that Jesus tells about again and again through the gospels.
The Samaritan was not a man of Jewish faith!! But Jesus said he was by far the only choice for a friend of the man injured on the side of the road. Not the preacher that walked by and looked the other way, probably with great certainty that his faith had secured for him a place in heaven. Who is a child of God? One who is obedient to His will. The Samaritan was not a man of faith, in the eyes of most, but his WORK in terms of kindness and concern for someone he did not know, received honor from Christ.
You cannot speak of faith without works, but neither can one speak of works without faith. To do so is to destroy the unity of life found in Christ, to render the one independent of the other, to play the one against the other, or to appeal to the authority of the one against the other. This leads only to the abstractions of an ethic of vitality and of a supposed ethic of Jesus. It leads to the well-known theory you have quoted about an autonomous domain of life which is entirely at variance with the sermon on the mount. It leads to forcible disruption of the reality of life as it is made known in Jesus Christ.
Jesus called no man to sit on his duff. Neither did He call any man to spout scriptures endlessly without making any concrete effort to relieve the suffering in the world. It's the oft told story of the boy on the beach after a storm, picking up starfish and tossing them back into the ocean. A man saw him and called out, "There's thousands of them on the beach! Do you think what you are doing is making any difference?" The boy leaned over, picked another starfish up and tossed it into the ocean. "It made a difference to that one!" he shouted back.
Jesus wants us to DO--to make a difference. If we do not, we are like the servant in the parable who hid his master's talents so he wouldn't lose them. The two other servants had invested the master's money and returned what he had given them with interest. The master called both of them faithful. And, excuse me, what were they faithful about? Their work for their master, of course. The master took the money from the servant without works and gave it to another.
Those are Jesus' stories--not Paul's.
Last edited by Wardendresden; 07-12-2013 at 12:40 AM..
Reason: punctuation
Just asking - can you make your points using references that are in the Scriptures instead of what's not there?
One can justify anything by making a point of what's not there.
I can use heroin because it's not specifically in the Bible.
Since Matthew 25 contains the record of Jesus' last known sermon before his crucifixion, I believe He would speak about what is most important. He spoke of works not faith.
But He spoke of works throughout his ministry:
"Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit (works) is hewn down, and cast into the fire."
Matt 7:19
"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house, and it fell not: for it was founded on a rock.
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine and DOETH THEM NOT, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand, and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and it fell: and great was the fall of it."
Matt 7:24-27
And what were the sayings he referred to? Partial summation of early chapter 7:
1. Judge not, that ye be not judged
2. All things that you wish that men should do to you, do you even so to them
3. Beware of false prophets--you know them by their FRUITS--(another reason I was astonished to read Twin calling Bonhoeffer a false prophet. Bonhoeffer's fruits were only good. I suspect Twin has never read a biography of Bonhoeffer's life).
Now those are all in the Scripture. No one can point to any sermon of Jesus and show Him preaching faith, and faith alone. In fact it is the opposite. Jesus preaches that works show faith, the opposite of what Paul presents in his epistles.
Trying to compare teachings under the law for Israel to teaching for Christians under the present dispensation of Grace just does not work.
Matthew 15:22 And, behold, a woman of Canaan came out of the same coasts, and cried unto him, saying, Have mercy on me, O Lord, thou Son of David; my daughter is grievously vexed with a devil.
23 But he answered her not a word. And his disciples came and besought him, saying, Send her away; for she crieth after us.
24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
25 Then came she and worshipped him, saying, Lord, help me.
26 But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children’s bread, and to cast it to dogs.
Who did Jesus say He was sent to?
Are you the lost sheep of the house of Israel?
How did Jesus refer to Gentiles?
Matthew 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Who did Jesus forbid the Apostles to take His word to?
Who did Jesus sent the Apostles to?
Are you "the lost sheep of the house of Israel?"
Romans 15:8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:
Are you "the circumcision?" (hint: that is Israel)
The problem some have in understanding the scripture is that they believe Jesus was teaching under the new dispensation when He was living and teaching under the law to Israel alone. The dispensation did not change to our present age of grace until after His death and Resurrection. The promise to Israel had to be offered and completely rejected before they would be set aside for a time for this dispensation which was not prophecised about but was kept secret from the foundation of the world to be ushered in.
Jesus Christ called and taught Paul to be the Apostle to the Gentiles to bring in this dispensation where Gentiles and Jews are equal and the Law and Israels prophetic destiny are set aside until this age is completed.
Since Matthew 25 contains the record of Jesus' last known sermon before his crucifixion, I believe He would speak about what is most important. He spoke of works not faith.
But He spoke of works throughout his ministry:
"Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit (works) is hewn down, and cast into the fire."
Matt 7:19
"Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: And the rain descended and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house, and it fell not: for it was founded on a rock.
And every one that heareth these sayings of mine and DOETH THEM NOT, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand, and the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and it fell: and great was the fall of it."
Matt 7:24-27
And what were the sayings he referred to? Partial summation of early chapter 7:
1. Judge not, that ye be not judged
2. All things that you wish that men should do to you, do you even so to them
3. Beware of false prophets--you know them by their FRUITS--(another reason I was astonished to read Twin calling Bonhoeffer a false prophet. Bonhoeffer's fruits were only good. I suspect Twin has never read a biography of Bonhoeffer's life).
Now those are all in the Scripture. No one can point to any sermon of Jesus and show Him preaching faith, and faith alone. In fact it is the opposite. Jesus preaches that works show faith, the opposite of what Paul presents in his epistles.
Works do show faith. No argument there.
Works are independent from one's salvation. Works are independent of the presence of the Holy Spirit.
If you concerned about Jesus' last statement - read His discourse after the last supper to the disciples from John 14-16 about what He said about the Holy Spirit - about how He would make His abode with them - how they would be One with Him.
You are falling into the church designed trap of holding the great church organizer, Paul, as an authority as opposed to what Jesus said. His writings certainly grew the church--and it basically wiped out the work of Peter, James and John who had walked and talked and recorded what Jesus actually said. Paul added a different interpretation.
Jesus' last sermon in Matthew 25 indicates that faith is displayed in works, and He did so with more than one example. For years I held to the exact theology you quoted above. But it is irreparably flawed when compared to the examples that Jesus gave again and again.
I am not saying that works gets one into heaven, but faith without works is not faith. How can anyone short of a deathbed confession say they do not have the opportunity, almost daily, to provide love and kindness to those who, in the opinion of many, do not deserve it? --- They can't. And that is exactly the example that Jesus tells about again and again through the gospels.
The Samaritan was not a man of Jewish faith!! But Jesus said he was by far the only choice for a friend of the man injured on the side of the road. Not the preacher that walked by and looked the other way, probably with great certainty that his faith had secured for him a place in heaven. Who is a child of God? One who is obedient to His will. The Samaritan was not a man of faith, in the eyes of most, but his WORK in terms of kindness and concern for someone he did not know, received honor from Christ.
You cannot speak of faith without works, but neither can one speak of works without faith. To do so is to destroy the unity of life found in Christ, to render the one independent of the other, to play the one against the other, or to appeal to the authority of the one against the other. This leads only to the abstractions of an ethic of vitality and of a supposed ethic of Jesus. It leads to the well-known theory you have quoted about an autonomous domain of life which is entirely at variance with the sermon on the mount. It leads to forcible disruption of the reality of life as it is made known in Jesus Christ.
Jesus called no man to sit on his duff. Neither did He call any man to spout scriptures endlessly without making any concrete effort to relieve the suffering in the world. It's the oft told story of the boy on the beach after a storm, picking up starfish and tossing them back into the ocean. A man saw him and called out, "There's thousands of them on the beach! Do you think what you are doing is making any difference?" The boy leaned over, picked another starfish up and tossed it into the ocean. "It made a difference to that one!" he shouted back.
Jesus wants us to DO--to make a difference. If we do not, we are like the servant in the parable who hid his master's talents so he wouldn't lose them. The two other servants had invested the master's money and returned what he had given them with interest. The master called both of them faithful. And, excuse me, what were they faithful about? Their work for their master, of course. The master took the money from the servant without works and gave it to another.
Those are Jesus' stories--not Paul's.
Paul was chosen by Jesus. Rather than pit Paul against Jesus, gain understanding regarding their teachings. Paul's teachings concern the Church.
Understand this. Nothing in the Olivet Discourse which is the subject of Matthew chapters 24 and 25 refers to the church; to the time in which we now living. The disciples had asked Jesus about when the temple would be destroyed, and what would be the sign of His coming at the end of the age. Not the end of the Church Age, but the end of the Age of Israel of which the future Tribulation is the last seven years. The Age of Israel is currently on hold for the duration of the Church Age which is an intercalation. Matthew does not record Jesus' answer to the disciples question about the destruction of the temple (Luke does in Luke 21:20). Matthew does record Jesus' answer regarding the sign of His coming at the end of the age.
The judgment of the Nations in Matthew 25 concerns the sheep and the goats in which they are judged on the basis of how they treat the Jews during the future Tribulation. The sheep represent believers while the goats represent unbelievers. Understand this. Everyone, both believer and unbeliever will be judged for their works. The believer will be evaluated for the purpose of reward. The unbeliever on the other hand, whether it's the Tribulational unbeliever at the judgment of the Nations which will take place during the timeframe between the end of the Tribulation and the beginning of the Millennial kingdom, or the unbelievers who will appear at the great white throne judgment a thousand years later, will be condemned on the basis of their works. Unbelievers are not condemned for their sins because Jesus was already judged for their sins. They are therefore condemned because in rejecting Christ as Savior they do not possess the imputed righteousness of God and so must stand on their own righteousness which is unacceptable to God.
Jesus prophecied that in that future Tribulational period most people's love would grow cold because of the increase in lawlessness (Matt. 24:12). During that time only those who are believers will be willing to help others. But that is certainly not true of today. There are unbelievers who can put believers to shame in the good works department. But the unbeliever's good works are not acceptable to God. Neither are the works of a believer whose works are produced while out of fellowship. The believer's works which are done in the energy of the flesh are 'wood, hay, and straw' which will be burned up at the judgment seat of Christ. Therefore, today, you cannot determine who is a believer or an unbeliever by their works.
You must distinquish between that which is necessary for eternal salvation which is simply faith alone in Christ alone, and what is necessary to be a spiritually productive believer after salvation. These are two different things.
A person is eternally saved the very first moment he trusts in Christ Jesus for salvation. He is saved before he has any opportunity to do any works whatsoever. The believer should be motivated to produce good works as a result of having been saved, but works are never the means of being saved.
Again, you cannot tell a believer from an unbeliever on the basis of his works, because an unbeliever is capable of doing good works which while not acceptable to God are certainly good from the human perspective.
On judgment day whom will be doing the judgment Paul or Jesus ?
Falsely calling Jesus lord constitutes a lie God must judge.
Jesus is the word of God .
Paul speaks for himself .
God does not compromise with sin, repentence is essential not optional.
Paul distorts the gospel implying God is compromising with sin =grace . Jesus did not teach.
Sin is self government =excluding God
One can only sin, being with out God's instruction via the Holy Spirit Jesus provides His believers.
Matthew 7;21,22,23,
One can only produce good fruit if they are obedient, not self motivated deeds.
Should I come across a man in obvious need SOP is first to ask God for instruction, How is that need best met ?
My perspective is limited ,and God knows the truth, regardless of the need the man precieves of him self even.
When I have God's instruction, and I obey , the need is met best from God's POV not always mine.
This is not a vague faith but a relationship Jesus intended fo all believers.
Jesus said , ," why do you call me Lord, but do not do the things I said?"
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Paul said, not Jesus
