U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 07-11-2013, 09:36 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,644,985 times
Reputation: 575

Advertisements

Dead Faith = Faith without Works:

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

So there you have it from James - Faith without works is DEAD. It is essentially "Dead Faith". So the question is can Dead Faith save you? - No!

Grace is approval (and not merely favor). God favors us all towards salvation but only those that have received Grace are approved. But the way in which one must obtain that Grace (Approval) is through Faith. Because Faith is the ACCESS to Grace:

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

So this means that if Faith is the Access to Grace and Faith without works is dead, then one is not approved unless they have ACTIVE Faith (or saving Faith) that is accompanied by works.

Just remember DEAD Faith doesn't save.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-11-2013, 09:58 AM
 
Location: Beautiful Niagara Falls ON.
10,024 posts, read 10,189,247 times
Reputation: 8879
There is no such a thing as "Dead Faith". All those of Faith who have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit desire to become more like Jesus in everything they do, including works. "Works" include all we do, think and say and not as it is often misunderstood, just doings. Otherwise James makes Jesus a liar. What were the "Works" of the thief on the cross beside the Lord? His Faith was saving Faith as pronounced by the highest authority there is, Jesus Himself. What were this man's works and what were the evidences of these works that proved him saved?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-11-2013, 10:05 AM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,336 posts, read 14,222,466 times
Reputation: 10148
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Dead Faith = Faith without Works:

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

So there you have it from James - Faith without works is DEAD. It is essentially "Dead Faith". So the question is can Dead Faith save you? - No!

Grace is approval (and not merely favor). God favors us all towards salvation but only those that have received Grace are approved. But the way in which one must obtain that Grace (Approval) is through Faith. Because Faith is the ACCESS to Grace:

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

So this means that if Faith is the Access to Grace and Faith without works is dead, then one is not approved unless they have ACTIVE Faith (or saving Faith) that is accompanied by works.

Just remember DEAD Faith doesn't save.

That's not accurate.

James is writing to people who are already believers. Salvation is not an issue here. What is in red above is an incorrect assumption. James (and the rest of the Bible) does not make the above premise because it is not true.

What saves you is the presence of the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ, and the Father within a person. The Holy Spirit is sent by God from heaven to a person who believes that Jesus Christ was sent to die and be resurrected for our sins. This is the faith that saves a person. This faith is independent from any works.

The clear statement about that is here.

Ephesians 2:8-10
- For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

We are saved through faith and not as a result of works. We are created to do good works - but not saved through good works.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-11-2013, 10:16 AM
 
Location: Gulf Coast Texas
26,336 posts, read 14,222,466 times
Reputation: 10148
Other supporting verses...

2 Timothy 1:8-12 - Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, 10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.

Titus 3:4-7
- But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Galatians 2:15-16
- We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; 16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

All of these verses are direct and clear about works being totally separate from salvation.

If you choose to go over assumptions and man-made theories for pages and pages - go ahead. Just know that the Scriptures are clear and consistent on this. Any deviations attempting to link works to salvation are total lies.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-11-2013, 10:35 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,644,985 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
There is no such a thing as "Dead Faith". All those of Faith who have been regenerated by the Holy Spirit desire to become more like Jesus in everything they do, including works. "Works" include all we do, think and say and not as it is often misunderstood, just doings. Otherwise James makes Jesus a liar. What were the "Works" of the thief on the cross beside the Lord? His Faith was saving Faith as pronounced by the highest authority there is, Jesus Himself. What were this man's works and what were the evidences of these works that proved him saved?
The thief did all the works he could do given that situation.

James is consistent with what Christ taught.

Let's consider the thief didn't die on the cross. But let's also say that he did believe Jesus was savior and did believe that Jesus is the way but never helped a soul but himself. Are you telling me his faith was not dead faith?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-11-2013, 10:37 AM
 
20,353 posts, read 15,730,497 times
Reputation: 7497
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Dead Faith = Faith without Works:

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

So there you have it from James - Faith without works is DEAD. It is essentially "Dead Faith". So the question is can Dead Faith save you? - No!

Grace is approval (and not merely favor). God favors us all towards salvation but only those that have received Grace are approved. But the way in which one must obtain that Grace (Approval) is through Faith. Because Faith is the ACCESS to Grace:

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

So this means that if Faith is the Access to Grace and Faith without works is dead, then one is not approved unless they have ACTIVE Faith (or saving Faith) that is accompanied by works.

Just remember DEAD Faith doesn't save.
Save you from what? When salvation is mentioned in the Bible it does not always refer to eternal salvation, but often refers to some type of temporal salvation. When James asked in James 2:14 if faith without works can save a person, he did not have eternal salvation in mind. He was referring to the fact that faith without works in the life of an eternally saved believer results in a useless, non productive (dead) spiritual life.

I am not going to take the time to get into a debate about this. I am simply going to provide a study on the Book of James given by Dr. Robert Dean who explains what James meant.

Here is the link.>>> DeanBible.org: 1998 - James Go to the appropriate lessons concerning James 2:14-20, click and listen.


James-045 <<<----- Once in the site, click Here to listen
Does Saving Faith Necessarily Produce Good; James 2:13-16

James-046
Doctrine Plus Application; James 2:18-21

James-047
Vindication of Abraham by Works; James 2:20-24

Those of you who misunderstand James and will take the time to listen might just learn something.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-11-2013, 10:38 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,644,985 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
That's not accurate.

James is writing to people who are already believers. Salvation is not an issue here. What is in red above is an incorrect assumption. James (and the rest of the Bible) does not make the above premise because it is not true.

What saves you is the presence of the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ, and the Father within a person. The Holy Spirit is sent by God from heaven to a person who believes that Jesus Christ was sent to die and be resurrected for our sins. This is the faith that saves a person. This faith is independent from any works.

The clear statement about that is here.

Ephesians 2:8-10
- For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them.

We are saved through faith and not as a result of works. We are created to do good works - but not saved through good works.
Well it is true that the Holy Spirit saves you and that Having Christ and the Father saves you. But to obtain them is via Faith. Again, the access to Grace is via Faith.

Now, let's not pretend that I made up the statement that Access to Grace is via Faith. That is in your Bible:

Rom 5:2 By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

So obviously, to have Grace is to have the Holy Spirit, the Father, and the Son, but it requires the Faith to access that Approval.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-11-2013, 10:44 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,644,985 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC View Post
Other supporting verses...

2 Timothy 1:8-12 - Therefore do not be ashamed of the testimony of our Lord or of me His prisoner, but join with me in suffering for the gospel according to the power of God, 9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, 10 but now has been revealed by the appearing of our Savior Christ Jesus, who abolished death and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 11 for which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle and a teacher.

Titus 3:4-7
- But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out upon us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 so that being justified by His grace we would be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

Galatians 2:15-16
- We are Jews by nature and not sinners from among the Gentiles; 16 nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the Law; since by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified.

All of these verses are direct and clear about works being totally separate from salvation.

If you choose to go over assumptions and man-made theories for pages and pages - go ahead. Just know that the Scriptures are clear and consistent on this. Any deviations attempting to link works to salvation are total lies.
I can see where your confused already. So let's clarify a few things going forward. There is the following:

1.) works
2.) Faith
3.) Faith and works

#1 - is found of those that simply follow the law - it is not of Faith at all but in debtness to the letter of the Old Testament law. We can also lump in here works of the flesh since the result is the same motivation.
#2 - Faith here being specified without works. In other words this is the many people that claim to believe in Christ and yet do not what He says. They have no accompanied works of OUTWARDNESS. More importantly they have no outward works towards others AT THE SACRIFICE of SELF.
#3 - This is the saving Faith that James talks about also that which Abraham had. This is Faith that is even against SELF, which even Abraham taking of his own child to sacrifice respresented.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-11-2013, 10:45 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 5,644,985 times
Reputation: 575
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Save you from what? When salvation is mentioned in the Bible it does not always refer to eternal salvation, but often refers to some type of temporal salvation. When James asked in James 2:14 if faith without works can save a person, he did not have eternal salvation in mind. He was referring to the fact that faith without works in the life of an eternally saved believer results in a useless, non productive (dead) spiritual life.

I am not going to take the time to get into a debate about this. I am simply going to provide a study on the Book of James given by Dr. Robert Dean who explains what James meant.

Here is the link.>>> DeanBible.org: 1998 - James Go to the appropriate lessons concerning James 2:14-20, click and listen.


James-045 <<<----- Once in the site, click Here to listen
Does Saving Faith Necessarily Produce Good; James 2:13-16

James-046
Doctrine Plus Application; James 2:18-21

James-047
Vindication of Abraham by Works; James 2:20-24

Those of you who misunderstand James and will take the time to listen might just learn something.
I don't need to listen to that sermon to know that James was talking about Saving Faith.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-11-2013, 10:55 AM
 
20,353 posts, read 15,730,497 times
Reputation: 7497
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Save you from what? When salvation is mentioned in the Bible it does not always refer to eternal salvation, but often refers to some type of temporal salvation. When James asked in James 2:14 if faith without works can save a person, he did not have eternal salvation in mind. He was referring to the fact that faith without works in the life of an eternally saved believer results in a useless, non productive (dead) spiritual life.

I am not going to take the time to get into a debate about this. I am simply going to provide a study on the Book of James given by Dr. Robert Dean who explains what James meant.

Here is the link.>>> DeanBible.org: 1998 - James Go to the appropriate lessons concerning James 2:14-20, click and listen.


James-045 <<<----- Once in the site, click Here to listen
Does Saving Faith Necessarily Produce Good; James 2:13-16

James-046
Doctrine Plus Application; James 2:18-21

James-047
Vindication of Abraham by Works; James 2:20-24

Those of you who misunderstand James and will take the time to listen might just learn something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
I don't need to listen to that sermon to know that James was talking about Saving Faith.
That is the attitude of one who is unwilling to learn. But suit yourself. As I said, I am not going to take the time to debate this. By the way, it is not a 'sermon.' It is an exegetical study of the Book of James.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top