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Don't you think you are being a little bit dishonest here? I don't pretend to know more than God nor correct God. Don't confuse your own opinion/belief with what God has really said.
All we can do is look at the facts of what scripture actually says and trust in God. And scripture actually does say in many places that all people will be saved eventually.
For example we know everyone will bow, confess, and swear allegiance to God. You don't swear allegiance to God if you are being thrown into hell. Sure you might be ashamed of what you did, but that is part of judgment.
Isaiah 45
22 “Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 “I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24 “They will say of Me, ‘Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength.’
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
25 “In the Lord all the offspring of Israel
Will be justified and will glory.”
You need to realize the full magnitude of this prophecy. God tells everyone 'turn to me and be saved', and then He swears everyone will in fact bow and confess and swear allegiance to Him. How is that not a picture of every soul being saved? Before you go there, verses 24 and 25 do not contradict this.
Phil 2
9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
The word for confess there actually means a confession of glory and praise. Not a forced confession. Any forced confession would be a lie that would not exalt Him.
Luke 3:6
And all people will see God’s salvation.
This is actually part of a prophecy in which God makes every crooked path straight, every mountain made low. This is not speaking about the landscape, but about people. God will correct everyone, and then all people will have seen God's salvation.
Rev 5
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
Everyone praises God. Will those in hell really praise God? Do you think those 'under the earth' are in 'hell', praising God? There is more symbolic meaning here than literal.
I had commented on the verses you posted about cutting off your foot and the parables in Matt 25, did you have any response? Do you really believe not diligently feeding the hungry and caring for the poor sends you to 'hell'?
That is not completely accurate or very stereotying. For example, I'm a universalist, but do not believe that everyone is currently saved. I do believe in due time that all will be. I also do believe in judgement. I believe all born with Adam's sin.
Most importantly, universalism is the only doctrine I know of that speaks of the complete eradication of sin at its source (in the minds and hearts of men). It is not a relocation plan like Eternal Torment where sin gets handed a kingdom and Sin sits in lordship over its subjects for the rest of Eternity. Jesus didn't go away to build a place for Sin to have dominion.
Ditto. Excellent post. It bugs me when people make inaccurate assertions about what they think Universalist Christians believe.
You have said nothing here about the eradication of sin for those in Hell. Atonement for Adam's sin is at Faith but everyone step in Faith is a putting down of sin in ones own flesh by the very Spirit of Christ. This is obviously how Christ cures us - by His Spirit guiding our actions to prevent us from sin.
Choice is exercised in the Framework that God provides it. If God controls the framework, then He can influence the choice and the Bible shows He does exactly that - for example when He hardened Pharoahs heart. When He brought about the complete about face of Paul who previously persecuted the Children of God. There is no question that man does things of his own volition but if man thinks that God would not attempt to control that decision through the framework which He provides man, then man is speaking from a proud heart and a deceived or ignorant one at that. So is man still at fault? - sure he was still allowed on his own volition but God is overall responsible because the framework for that choice was established by Him. And He promises to reconcile it all and show that the contrast was warranted and brings about a more grand appreciation.
Yes, indeed. Those who insist that certain people are bound for eternal torment in hell often boast of their excellent and timely DECISION/CHOICE to "accept God" (before it was too late). Too bad those others didn't choose God IN THEIR LIMITED TIME ALLOTMENT. Of course God's hands are tied in the matter....Sigh....
Don't you think you are being a little bit dishonest here? I don't pretend to know more than God nor correct God. Don't confuse your own opinion/belief with what God has really said.
All we can do is look at the facts of what scripture actually says and trust in God. And scripture actually does say in many places that all people will be saved eventually.
For example we know everyone will bow, confess, and swear allegiance to God. You don't swear allegiance to God if you are being thrown into hell. Sure you might be ashamed of what you did, but that is part of judgment.
Isaiah 45
22 “Turn to Me and be saved, all the ends of the earth;
For I am God, and there is no other.
23 “I have sworn by Myself,
The word has gone forth from My mouth in righteousness
And will not turn back,
That to Me every knee will bow, every tongue will swear allegiance.
24 “They will say of Me, ‘Only in the Lord are righteousness and strength.’
Men will come to Him,
And all who were angry at Him will be put to shame.
25 “In the Lord all the offspring of Israel
Will be justified and will glory.”
You need to realize the full magnitude of this prophecy. God tells everyone 'turn to me and be saved', and then He swears everyone will in fact bow and confess and swear allegiance to Him. How is that not a picture of every soul being saved? Before you go there, verses 24 and 25 do not contradict this.
Phil 2
9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
The word for confess there actually means a confession of glory and praise. Not a forced confession. Any forced confession would be a lie that would not exalt Him.
Luke 3:6
And all people will see God’s salvation.
This is actually part of a prophecy in which God makes every crooked path straight, every mountain made low. This is not speaking about the landscape, but about people. God will correct everyone, and then all people will have seen God's salvation.
Rev 5
13 Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all that is in them, saying:
“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be praise and honor and glory and power,
for ever and ever!”
Everyone praises God. Will those in hell really praise God? Do you think those 'under the earth' are in 'hell', praising God? There is more symbolic meaning here than literal.
I had commented on the verses you posted about cutting off your foot and the parables in Matt 25, did you have any response? Do you really believe not diligently feeding the hungry and caring for the poor sends you to 'hell'?
Classic example of usurping of Jesus as the Just Judge with the demonic lie of perverting the word "all" to mean "all inclusive" when Jesus himself self says "never will".
Talk about being dishonest about not correcting God ... that's if you wantonly reject this if you forsake him, he will reject you forever :
1 Chronicles 28:9
... for the Lord searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.
Yes, indeed. Those who insist that certain people are bound for eternal torment in hell often boast of their excellent and timely DECISION/CHOICE to "accept God" (before it was too late). Too bad those others didn't choose God IN THEIR LIMITED TIME ALLOTMENT. Of course God's hands are tied in the matter....Sigh....
To bad that those who do the accusing are the very one's who do the stereotyping ...... not all do.
I heard a very good explanation today. In the Old Testament laws, God said that if any man's ox (or any property) falls into another man's pit, the owner of the pit is responsible and must pay the damages.
Likewise, God created man with the ability to choose wrong (believe the lie). He allowed the Fallen Angels to exist and tempt men after they had already fallen and sinned (why did he not just destroy them?). He allowed the tree of knowledge to exist in their midst. Why? Because it all has a redemptive purpose. From this fall, humanity will grow and learn to understand our Creator, knowing both good and evil. Once we've seen all the damage disobedience does in this Age, all of us will understand his laws and ways are the only ways to live. God created the "pit" and allowed our fallen state. By his own laws, he is responsible for saving each and every one of us that falls into it (sin).
Last edited by LunaRabbit; 07-17-2013 at 02:16 PM..
Psalm 23
All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and
All the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee...
All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship
All they that go down to the dust shall bow before him and
None can keep alive his own soul.
Psalm 22
All the ends of the world shall remember and turn unto the LORD: and
All the kindreds of the nations shall worship before thee...
All they that be fat upon earth shall eat and worship
All they that go down to the dust shall bow before him and
None can keep alive his own soul.
And the scriptures keep coming and they still insist it is not biblical.
Hope you don't mind TKC, I changed the chapter to 22
Last edited by pcamps; 07-17-2013 at 06:41 PM..
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