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Universalism claims that sooner or later all people will be saved. The position claims the idea of hell and punishment is inconsistent with a loving God.
The original form of universalism, which began in the second century, taught that salvation would come after a temporary period of punishment. The new form of universalism declares that all men are now saved, though all do not realize it. Under this new universalism the job of the preacher and the missionary is to tell people they are already saved. Certain passages - John 12:32, Philippians 2:11, and 1 Timothy 2:4 - are typically twisted out of context in support of universalism.
Such passages, interpreted correctly, do not support universalism:
John 12:32 says that Christ's work on the cross makes possible the salvation of both Jews and Gentiles. Notice, however, that the Lord - in the same passage - warned of judgment of those who reject Christ (v. 48).
Philippians 2:10-11 assures us that someday all people will acknowledge that Jesus is Lord, but not necessarily as Savior. (Even those in hell will have to acknowledge Christ's Lordship.)
First Timothy 2:4 expresses God's desire that all be saved, but does not promise that all will be. This divine desire is only realized in those who exercise faith in Christ.
The Scriptures consistently categorize people into one of two classes (saved/unsaved, also called believers/unbelievers), and portray the final destiny of every person as being one of two realities (heaven or hell).
In Matthew 13:30 Jesus in a parable said, "Let both [tares and wheat] grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn." Here unbelievers and believers are spoken of as tares and wheat. Two classes!
In Matthew 13:49 Jesus said, "This is how it will be at the end of the age. The angels will come and separate the wicked from the righteous." Again, two classes are mentioned - unbelievers and believers spoken of as the wicked and the righteous.
In Matthew 25:32 Jesus said that following His second coming, "All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats." Here believers and unbelievers are differentiated by the terms "sheep" and "goats." The sheep will enter into God's kingdom (vs. 34) and inherit eternal life (vs. 46). The goats go into eternal punishment (vs. 46).
In Luke 16:26 we find Abraham in the afterlife telling the unsaved rich man: "Between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us." Hades apparently had two compartments: "paradise" for the saved, and "torments" for the unsaved - and these compartments were separated by a great chasm or gulf.
Clearly, then, the Scriptures speak of two classes of people (the saved and the unsaved) and two possible destinies (heaven for the saved; hell for the unsaved). And each respective person ends up in one of these places based upon whether or not he or she placed saving faith in Christ during his or her time on earth (Acts 16:31).
To missthe mark is the definition of SIN.
To missthe mark is likened to an archer taking aim at a target and missing the target.
The ETand annihilation doctrine hold God to be a sinner, for God took aim at thesalvation of the world and both ET and annihilation teach God missed thesalvation of the world.
Strangedoctrines indeed that hold God to be a sinner.
To missthe mark is likened to an archer taking aim at a target and missing the target.
The ETand annihilation doctrine hold God to be a sinner, for God took aim at thesalvation of the world and both ET and annihilation teach God missed thesalvation of the world.
Strangedoctrines indeed that hold God to be a sinner.
We are not talking about Extra Terrestrials or annihilationist on this thread. Did you not read the topic?
I have noticed that the people that Pcamps and others keep calling "ET" or "Eternal Torment" never themselves say such words. Only people like Pcamps who do not believe his god is just enough to punish his enemies unlike the God of Jesus Christ.
But for anyone to claim that God and Jesus are not the authors of eternal results for sin is just stupid!
Danial 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And the list goes on. Point is that Jesus Christ said this and those who follow Jesus accept His words. Those who reject this reject Jesus.
It masquerades itself as being it simply due to the wanton mindset of certain people that selected scriptures have to be ignored or deliberatly redefine certain words.
The Universalist will usurp Jesus saying "never" with their distorted argument of the word "all".
Psalm 95:11
"So I declared on oath in my anger, ‘They shall neverenter my rest.’ ”
Matthew 18:3 And he said: “Truly I tell you, unless you change and become like little children, you will neverenter the kingdom of heaven."
Hebrews 3:18
" And to whom did God swear that they would neverenter his rest if not to those who disobeyed? "
1 Chronicles 28:9
" .... for the Lord searches every heart and understands every desire and every thought. If you seek him, he will be found by you; but if you forsake him, he will reject you forever.
(1 Chronicles 28:9 in your go to YLT version has it as)
if thou dost seek Him, He is found of thee, and if thou dost forsake Him, He casteth thee off for ever.
Last edited by twin.spin; 07-16-2013 at 03:00 PM..
Can anyone provide a verse that say's everyone will be rewarded with everlasting live and non everlasting punishment?
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
Can anyone provide a verse that say's everyone will be rewarded with everlasting live and non everlasting punishment?
I believe this was already answered. The scriptures clearly teach everlasting life is knowing Jesus and the Father, and the Kingdom of God is within you, not somewhere in the clouds. It is a way of life, a philosophy, living in the state of love instead of fear. It's not a place. However, the New Jerusalem is a place. The two are often confused.
Waking to everlasting life is waking to the spiritual state of being in Christ, being free from sin. Waking to everlasting contempt is waking to the spiritual state of still being in your sins, which need to still be dealt with (this judgement you are so concerned with). This is everlasting contempt because these sins will always be against God's will and holiness. Again, a state of being that can be changed. Not a place.
The sin is eradicated from the vessel. Sin cannot continue to go on in it's own kingdom. That is incredibly unBiblical, for sin will be destroyed.
The problem is that the doctrine of Eternal Torment is completely contrary to the nature of God and contrary to the mission of Christ. If your Teacher/Preacher, then tell me where the ERADICATION of sin takes place? All ET teaches is relocation of sinners to special place called "hell" but it teaches nothing about abolishing sin there. On the contrary, all I seem to hear is that those going there will be in eternal rebellion against God (that is a SIN). Eternal Torment is a preaching that the sinner gets to remain in SIN for the rest of eternity.
The Bible says that the very Purpose that Jesus came was to destroy the works of Satan which is SIN and yet Eternal Torment preaches that Sin gets its own kingdom and rules for the rest of eternity over its subjects. Sin personified would have to embrace the ET doctrine since it glorifies the mission of sin.
There is a lot of truth in what you say, but, switching between human rationale … and what the Bible says, distorts God’s truth. Hell and eternal death – like heaven and eternal life, exist because God created man to ‘choose’ to love, obey, recognize Him and His holiness ... instead of arbitrarily imposing a 'marionette-type' existence.’ (If God simply demanded or imposed ‘love’, it would only be a parody of the real thing). (BTW, Jesus said, “I have come that you might have life and have it more abundantly” … not to destroy the works of Satan which you claim are sin)
“Sin” does not exist in a vacuum or as an independent entity, but, rather, it is comprised of man’s choice to reject/deny/rebel against God’s sovereignty, Christ’s work and Truth itself. Therefore, as long as man and this world exist (as we know them), sin and rebellion will also exist. (Since all have an inborn knowledge of God’s eternal power, deity and truth, those who suppress that knowledge … are without excuse (Rom. 1)).
Christ won the victory over sin through atonement, not eradication. He satisfied the ‘just wages of sin’ and thus, forgave the PENALTY (eternal consequence of sin) for all … who will trust/accept God’s grace and mercy in Christ’s atoning work …on their behalf. (If salvation and eternal life were simply ‘imposed’ on every individual, then Christ’s atoning work on the cross was pointless). However, sin/rebellion against God and Christ continue to exist in the hearts of men in this world; … without the need to ‘eradicate sin itself.’ In the end, all who reject God’s sovereign grace in Christ, will be eternally separated from God and those who embraced them.
Gradually, during this life, the POWER of sin over a faithful believer’s life is ‘eradicated/diminished’ … Ultimately, in ‘eternity,’ the PRESENCE of sin is ‘eradicated’/abolished from God’s presence But, “sin” is not some whispy/bodily entity who must be banished or abolished. It is the condition that exists in the hearts of those who refuse to submit to God’s sovereign Lordship and holy righteousness. -- Satan only provides the alternative lies/deception for those who reject God and His truth. Satan has no power/authority to ‘force’ men to accept his rule or lies, BUT, then neither does God ‘force’ men to accept His rule and truth!
Ultimately, Satan and his minions will be cast into a place called the eternal ‘lake of fire’. But, what does that really mean? (We simply have no earthly context for this). Frankly, I’m less dogmatic and conversant with what those in the UR camp refer to as “the ‘the doctrine/place of eternal torment’-- than the UR folks seem to be. (IMO they are creating and attacking a purported ‘doctrine’ that only exists as a euphemism in their own minds. For one thing, we know that people are not going to spend eternity in temporary, fleshly bodies. We also know that a finite concept of infinite ‘time/eternity’ is only a ‘shadow’ of what will really be (“eye has not seen nor mind conceived the things God has prepared….”). Further, even though everyone wants to go there, and Hollywood attempts to depict it, we really have no grasp of what heaven really is!
Perhaps the scriptural characterization of ‘hell’ as a fiery place of eternal torment is given to describe the worst condition any human could possibly imagine. Scripture doesn’t devote significant time and effort to describing heaven or hell, because they have no relevance in this world. What does have relevance is the imperative of using this temporary earthly lifetime to respond to our amazing God and His incredible mercy and grace.
I have noticed that the people that Pcamps and others keep calling "ET" or "Eternal Torment" never themselves say such words. Only people like Pcamps who do not believe his god is just enough to punish his enemies unlike the God of Jesus Christ.
But for anyone to claim that God and Jesus are not the authors of eternal results for sin is just stupid!
Danial 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Matthew 18:6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Matthew 25:31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:
32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.
37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?
38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.
46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Mark 9:42 And whosoever shall offend one of these little ones that believe in me, it is better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and he were cast into the sea.
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
And the list goes on. Point is that Jesus Christ said this and those who follow Jesus accept His words. Those who reject this reject Jesus.
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