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I never said NDEs did not exist. I said those cases are not applicable towards judgment.
The OP tried to relate the experience of NDEs towards whats was coming in the final judgment. These experiences are not applicable to that end.
A bit like saying, "I live in a cancer zone but the much higher incidence of cancer is not applicable to my state of health" isn't it?
So let me try and understand this. You acknowledge that NDE's exist; that these people in all likelihood are telling the truth; that God may indeed be showing complete mercy and love towards the most hardened atheist who comes before Him; that it's possible, even probable that they do not experience any judgment from God at the time they comes before Him
YET
all of this is irrelevant---they will still be judged at the resurrection and cast into hell???
Is that actually what I am hearing, or am I mistaken? BTW, I never related all this to the final judgment. Far as I can tell were these people to have stepped across the point of no return as many tried to do but were stopped by God or others from doing so they would have remained permanently in this perfect state of bliss. That's the impression most of them give when they tell their experience.
In case anybody missed it that's the point of this whole post: that there is NO fiery torment or punishment waiting for a non-Christian the way the Fundamentalists are trying to foist upon the world population-at-large. Which, incidentally, is why so many thinking people with measurable IQ's are fleeing Christianity, especially Fundamentalist Christianity in such large numbers that Christianity is dramatically shrinking and the vacuum is being filled by people with lower IQ's and more pliable minds---just the types that drivel like "A Divine Revelation of Hell" would appeal to:
Quote:
It is startling, as a Christian who has personally seen Jesus [the writer of this review, startlingly enough], to comprehend that God is capable of turning down the pleadings of a person burning in hell. But the reason why is confirmed by that pleading soul's response once he is denied: He immediately begins cursing Jesus. It is obvious that he had not yet repented--why should Jesus release a liar?
Why indeed?! Astonishing, the mindset of some Fundamentalists! I mean how dare Jesus show mercy to a poor pitiable sinning child of His!!
Last edited by thrillobyte; 07-16-2013 at 07:18 PM..
A bit like saying, "I live in a cancer zone but the much higher incidence of cancer is not applicable to my state of health" isn't it?
So let me try and understand this. You acknowledge that NDE's exist; that these people in all likelihood are telling the truth; that God may indeed be showing complete mercy and love towards the most hardened atheist who comes before Him; that it's possible, even probable that they do not experience any judgment from God at the time they comes before Him
YET
all of this is irrelevant---they will still be judged at the resurrection and cast into hell???
Is that actually what I am hearing, or am I mistaken? BTW, I never related all this to the final judgment. Far as I can tell were these people to have stepped across the point of no return as many tried to do but were stopped by God or others from doing so they would have remained permanently in this perfect state of bliss. That's the impression most of them give when they tell their experience.
In case anybody missed it that's the point of this whole post: that there is NO fiery torment or punishment waiting for a non-Christian the way the Fundamentalists are trying to foist upon the world population-at-large. Which, incidentally, is why so many thinking people with measurable IQ's are fleeing Christianity, especially Fundamentalist Christianity in such large numbers that Christianity is dramatically shrinking and the vacuum is being filled by people with lower IQ's and more pliable minds---just the types that drivel like "A Divine Revelation of Hell" would appeal to:
Why indeed?! Astonishing, the mindset of some Fundamentalists! I mean how dare Jesus show mercy to a poor pitiable sinning child of His!!
What part of not applicable do you not understand?
The people had an experience. Can't deny that. You can't link anything they went through in their NDE to their post-earthly existence - and then extrapolate that to everybody's destiny.
Die once? Tell that to Lazarus. NDE's not scriptual? Tell that to Paul. He was out of body and said he was not able to describe what he saw. Plus, what if after the judgement it was decided the person had to come back to finish learning the lesson they still need to learn?
I've been studying NDE's for awhile as well but people believe in what they want to believe in. That's why you'll get a lot of disagreement here. To those who subscribe to 'soul sleep', would you consider what happens to them is the same thing that happens to us when we sleep? We dream? I find it hard to believe God would put us on ice so to speak.
Plus, to those who say they are visions from demons...really? What about children who have NDEs? Who's in charge, God or the devil?
I believe in soul sleep. I think it would be nice if we dream somewhat. We will find out someday.
What part of not applicable do you not understand?
The people had an experience. Can't deny that. You can't link anything they went through in their NDE to their post-earthly existence - and then extrapolate that to everybody's destiny.
Well, you can, but you would be fooling yourself.
Well, unlike you, Rob, I don't believe God yanks people's chains.
I believe in soul sleep. I think it would be nice if we dream somewhat. We will find out someday.
What I wonder sometimes is if these NDEs are some type of dream or physical reaction that people go through at the point of death, or if there is something more to it. It may occur in a flash of a second but seem like several minutes.
It doesn't fully explain the NDEs where people remember floating out of their body and actually seeing themselves on the operating table and noting details about the doctor/hospital/etc.
I believe in soul sleep. I think it would be nice if we dream somewhat. We will find out someday.
According to Scripture we do not have to wait for 'someday' because King Solomon [ known for having God-given wisdom (1st Kings chapter 3 ) ] wrote us at Ecclesiastes 9 v 5 that the dead know nothing.
Besides no dreams then there would be no nightmares just dream-less sleep with the absence of thoughts as Psalm 146 v 4 mentions. Thoughts just perish at death.
The prophet Daniel looked forward to being awakened from death's long sleep to stand up again.- Daniel 12 vs 2,13
Some have a first or an earlier awakening [ resurrection ]- Rev. 20 v 6; 5 vs 9,10
The majority of mankind will then be awakened from death's sleep during Jesus' coming 1000- year reign over earth when our last enemy 'death' will be brought to nothing.- 1st Cor. 15 v 26; Rev. 21 vs 4,5; 1 v 18; Acts 24 v 15.
What I wonder sometimes is if these NDEs are some type of dream or physical reaction that people go through at the point of death, or if there is something more to it. It may occur in a flash of a second but seem like several minutes.
It doesn't fully explain the NDEs where people remember floating out of their body and actually seeing themselves on the operating table and noting details about the doctor/hospital/etc.
I would tend to agree with your assessment.
Moderator cut: delete
Last edited by Miss Blue; 07-17-2013 at 02:14 PM..
Reason: Personal attacks are off topic and infractible.
What I wonder sometimes is if these NDEs are some type of dream or physical reaction that people go through at the point of death, or if there is something more to it. It may occur in a flash of a second but seem like several minutes.
It doesn't fully explain the NDEs where people remember floating out of their body and actually seeing themselves on the operating table and noting details about the doctor/hospital/etc.
No, legoman, they are not dreams. NDE's take place when there is absolutely no signs of life in the bodies---no EKG (meaning no blood flow to the brain to feed it oxygen because no heartbeat); no EEG (meaning there is absolutely no brain activity going on that could even produce the dreams) no respiration; no bodily functions (urine production, hormone production, etc) For all intents and purposes, at a physiological and psychological level the person is just as dead as the car crash victim next to him who was coded and then pronounced dead. The only difference is that one's spirit returned to their body and the other's didn't.
To get the full impact of what these people have to say you have to read their accounts. Just start with George Ritchie's for a good one, probably the one that started the modern movement, and this from a well-balanced private who was on his way to medical school when it happened during WW2.
The reason Fundamentalists object so vehemently to NDE's and call them works of the devil, deceptions of satan and other such rot is because if the Fundamentalists ever started to think there might actually be even a grain of truth to them, their religious foundations would start cracking so badly that they would likely become unhinged--their psyche couldn't stand the paradox. This is why they completely close their minds to even a remote possibility they could be true, despite the mountains of evidence that they are, because NDE's are too great a threat to their religious and emotional well-being.
The reason Fundamentalists object so vehemently to NDE's and call them works of the devil, deceptions of satan and other such rot is because if the Fundamentalists ever started to think there might actually be even a grain of truth to them, their religious foundations would start cracking so badly that they would likely become unhinged--their psyche couldn't stand the paradox. This is why they completely close their minds to even a remote possibility they could be true, despite the mountains of evidence that they are, because NDE's are too great a threat to their religious and emotional well-being.
No.
I understand you have to sell your viewpoint, so you use a bunch dramatic and extreme language - but it's really simple.
We just believe in what God provided in the Bible as authority over the experiences of men.
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I mean how dare Jesus show mercy to a poor pitiable sinning child of His!!
