Eternal Salvation; Through Faith Alone, or by Faith plus works? (confess, grace)

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by Clear lens

Mike #218 Paul said that “if grace is to be grace then it has to exclude works on our part” (Romans 11:6).

Mike555, you are starting to reword Paul so as to edge the sacred text closer to your theory. I cannot tell if this is due to personality or if this is another example of the mis-contexting that happened in your post # 117 with 1 Clement. Pauls term “…Ουκετι εξ εργων…” is NOT an indication that the principle of grace “has to exclude works on our part” and NOTHING within the greek "has to exclude works on our part".

Be very careful Mike555. Using the tactic of changing Pauls' words in scripture to reflect your own desires blurs the line between honesty and dishonesty. The subtle changing of scripture to support an interpretation is not worth the loss in credibility it causes. Also, other readers are quite intelligent and are bound to see the subtle interpretative changes that is suggested to them.



Please do not become offended at my question Mike. I have already told you that I agree with Paul but do not agree with your interpretation of Paul. That is the source of the conflict. I believe the early Christians and their interpretation is a superior interpretation to yours.

Mike, I have answered your question and my question now appears eight times in various posts without an answer. Why must I believe your interpretation, instead of the interpretation of the earliest judeo-christians in their texts and in their own words?

I asked you :

If early Christians taught that repentance and desires and attempts to improve our moral status in thoughts and actions was an integral part of a “living faith”, then why is your interpretation to be preferred to the interpretation of the orthodox Christians living in the apostolic age, who tell us how they interpreted the christian message of early texts.

Clear
εισιτωφυω

No, you did not answer my question in those posts which you mentioned.

There is no room to misinterpret what Paul said. He said that you are saved by grace through faith and not by works. That means just what it says. You are not saved by works so that there is no room for boasting.

Since Paul stated that you are not saved by works, you cannot interpret that in any way to mean that works are required to be saved.



So that it cannot be said by those who would imply that I have reworded Paul's statement for dishonest reasons, Paul said

Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

This means exactly what it says. If works are the basis, then grace is not the basis. Since salvation is on the basis of grace, then it cannot be on the basis of works. This is simple to understand.

As for the early church, as I have said, what the early church believed is not the issue. There were varying beliefs in the early church just as there are today.

You have already been shown that Clement of Rome agreed with Paul that we are justified not by our works, but by faith.

19. Therefore they all were greatly glorified, not for their own sake, or for their own works, or for the righteousness that they themselves wrought, but through his will.
20. And we also, having been called by the same will in Christ Jesus, are not justified by ourselves, neither by our own wisdom, or knowledge, or piety, or the works which we have done in the holiness of our hearts:
21. But by that faith by which God Almighty has justified all men from the beginning; to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen. [First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians, chapter 14: 19-21] First Epistle of Clement to the Corinthians (Part 2)

Now, you said that I took those verses out of context and ignored the other things that he said about works. I did not. Clement distinguished between the fact that the Christian is to produce good works, and the fact that justification for eternal salvation is by faith and not by works.

But I will let the author of 'Our Legacy, The History of Christian Doctrine' tell you. Dr. John D. Hannah as mentioned in an earlier post is the department chairman and distinguished professor of historical theology at Dallas Theological Seminary in Dallas TX. In chapter 6, 'Salvation: A story of Sin and Grace' in the section on The Church Fathers and Salvation (100-150), p.204, Dr. Hannah writes with regard to Clement's Letter to the Corinthians:

The church fathers understood that humanity was in need of the Savior and that human sin was the cause of our distance from God. Clement of Rome (d.101?), an early elder, stated in his letter to the Corinthians that redemption is through the Lord Jesus Christ and not by our works. "We, therefore, who have been called by His will in Christ Jesus, are not justifies by ourselves, neither by our wisdom, or understanding or piety, nor by the works we have wrought in holiness of heart, but by the faith by which almighty God has justified all men from the beginning."

Dr. Hannah then goes on to quote from the Epistle to Diognetus 9:2-5 (estimated range of time of writing 130-200 AD) which in a similar vein states that man cannot be justified before God by our efforts, but through Christ alone. However, instead of using Dr. Hannah's translation in his book, I will copy and paste from an online source which is less time consuming. I will include a bit more than Dr. Hannah quoted.

9:2 And when our iniquity had been fully
accomplished, and it had been made perfectly manifest
that punishment and death were expected as its
recompense, and the season came which God had
ordained, when henceforth He should manifest His
goodness and power (O the exceeding great kindness and
love of God), He hated us not, neither rejected us,
nor bore us malice, but was long-suffering and
patient, and in pity for us took upon Himself our
sins, and Himself parted with His own Son as a ransom
for us, the holy for the lawless, the guileless for
the evil, _the just for the unjust,_ the incorruptible
for the corruptible, the immortal for the mortal.
9:3 For what else but His righteousness would have
covered our sins?
9:4 In whom was it possible for us lawless and
ungodly men to have been justified, save only in the
Son of God?
9:5 O the sweet exchange, O the inscrutable
creation, O the unexpected benefits; that the iniquity
of many should be concealed in One Righteous Man, and
the righteousness of One should justify many that are
iniquitous!
Diognetus. The Epistle of Mathetes to Diognetus (translation J.B. Lightfoot).

What the above passage says is that our sins can only be covered in the righteousness of Christ. It says that ungodly men can only be justified in Christ. This means that our works of righteousness cannot justify us for eternal life. And that is what Clement of Rome said, and it is what the apostle Paul said.

Romans 4:2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3] For what does the Scripture say? "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS." 4] Now to the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due. 5] But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness,

Paul said that if Abraham could boast of his works, it would only be before other people, but not before God. Paul then quoted from Genesis 15:6 to show that Abraham was justified by believing the promise of God.


Your question, ''If early Christians taught that repentance and desires and attempts to improve our moral status in thoughts and actions was an integral part of a “living faith”, then why is your interpretation to be preferred to the interpretation of the orthodox Christians living in the apostolic age, who tell us how they interpreted the christian message of early texts.'', completely ignores the fact that I have repeatedly stated that God expects the believer to pick up his cross and follow Jesus. A person must first be saved, which is strictly by grace through faith in Christ Jesus, and not by works, and then the believer can pick up his cross and follow Jesus.

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by nateswift

It boggles the mind that he keeps saying the same thing no matter how it is explained to him that it is not a matter of works being necessary to salvation, it is a matter of the attitude of the heart that is only demonstrated by that "eager(ness) to do good works" that Jesus gave Himself for. Titus 2:14. It is about a whole measure of faith in all that Christ is. He is so focussed on merit that he can't see tht no one is looking at merit when it is Christ in us that demonstrates His love in the things we do that only show his presence in our lives.



who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.

And you keep failing to understand that the only intended topic of this thread is that salvation is by faith and not by works. You also fail to see that people on this thread ARE saying that works are necessary for salvation.

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by balunman

It boggles the mind how some just cannot understand what is being said. You have explained it very well but they refuse to accept your answer and continue to argue against something you did not say. Seem's they only want strife and confusion.

I think there is a lot of truth in that. There are certainly those who wish to muddy up the waters, so to speak. But there are also those who are simply confused and are afraid to examine their beliefs and will simply tune out those who threaten those beliefs. And many people are scared to death that if they don't show God that they are trying to be good that He will send them to hell.

I simply want to make it clear to those who will listen that salvation is by the grace of God and is received through faith in Christ, and not by their own efforts. There are many who do not understand this.

[garya123]

Originally Posted by Mike555

Again, the issue is what the Bible teaches. What did the apostles say? Since Paul said that we are not saved by works, then we are not saved by works. That means that works are not a part of faith.

And since Jesus Himself said that the only work of God for eternal life was to believe on Him (which is non-meritorious), as opposed to the meritorious works (plural) that the crowd thought they could do to earn eternal life, that means that works are not a part of faith. (John 6:27-29).

And again, since you people who are arguing with me don't seem to understand, I have not said that works are not an important part of the believer's spiritual life. Works are a result of spiritual growth. They are not a requirement for salvation.

Good job! It is so very simple. Salvation is by faith and then comes the Grace given that will prepare one for good works all by faith in His ability [Grace] given. Again, it is so simple to understand.

It is foolish to think that one can start on His own to do good works without Grace that comes by faith. The works must be of the Spirit or they are in vain. Works are the fruit/evidence that genuine faith has taken root, not the means of salvation.

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by garya123

Good job! It is so very simple. Salvation is by faith and then comes the Grace given that will prepare one for good works all by faith in His ability [Grace] given. Again, it is so simple to understand.

Thanks Garya. Many people do tend to complicate the uncomplicated.

[Wardendresden]

In his introduction to Romans, Martin Luther wrote:

Anyone who does not do good works in this manner is an unbeliever...Thus, it is just as impossible to separate faith and works as it is to separate heat and light from fire![23]

I think, however, it is time for Christians that understand that truth to surrender this thread to those who have chosen another path--and their numbers are legion throughout Christianity--their path is broad--their way is shouted over the airways by television evangelists.

Micah 6:8

He hath shewed thee, O Man, what is good; and what doth the Lord require of thee but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God.

What was written on this thread will be brought before us again in due time.

The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ
moves on; nor all thy piety nor wit
shall lure it back to cancel half a line,
Nor all thy tears wash out a word of it.

[nateswift]

Originally Posted by Mike555

And you keep failing to understand that the only intended topic of this thread is that salvation is by faith and not by works. You also fail to see that people on this thread ARE saying that works are necessary for salvation.

And you keep failing to understand that the definition of terms is an integral part of that topic, and a presentation that gives such a simplistic definition of faith is misleading and counter to all that the message of Christ is about.

[Zur]

The real question is if salvation is conditional or not. Can a saved believer that sins a sin to death become spiritual death again and when he does not repent go to hell?
Rev 3:5 only he that overcomes is saved, there is the possibility to be plotted out.
Rev 22:19 says that God can do that too.
God can cut the fruitless branch out of the vine (Joh 15:6).
Jesus will not receive the lukewarm, nor them that do iniquity, only them that do the will of the Father.
Dan Corner has written a book about conditional salvation. Every one can make up his own mind. This life is the dressing room for eternity. Make sure you have the right faith, that is not fruitless.

[twin.spin]

Sometimes there are truths that are meant to be parallel to one another, this is one such example. Scriptures teach by faith alone, but faith is never alone.

Jesus taught:

"Your faith has saved you, go in peace"

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

and yet faith is never alone:

"The ax is already at the root of the trees, and every tree that does not produce good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire."

[Michael Way]

Originally Posted by Zur

The real question is if salvation is conditional or not. Can a saved believer that sins a sin to death become spiritual death again and when he does not repent go to hell?
Rev 3:5 only he that overcomes is saved, there is the possibility to be plotted out.

Zur, Revelation 3:5 is not saying that. The phrase, 'and I will not erase his name from the book of life,' is a figure of speech known as Litotes. The Bible frequently uses different kinds of figures of speech. Litotes uses understatement to emphasize a positive point by the negation of its negative. For example, in Hebrews 6:10 'For God is not unjust so as to forget your work and the love which you have shown toward His name...', means, 'For God is just to remember your work and the love which you have shown toward His name.' God's character guarantees that He will remember.

While Revelation 3:5 may seem to imply that a name could be erased from the book of life, it actually gives a positive affirmation that the name of the winner believer, the believer who overcomes, will be treated specially in the book of life.

Rev. 3:5 I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life = I will treat his name very specially in the Book of Life


Here is a list of other uses of Litotes in the Bible. >>> http://bible-translation.110mb.com/litotes.txt

Rev 22:19 says that God can do that too.

Revelation 22:19 is also not a warning that the believer can lose his salvation. It is a warning of loss of rewards and loss of privileges. In the eternal state, while all believers will share certain things in common, there are certain rewards and privileges which are above the normal blessings of eternity. Not every believer will have access to these depending on what they do with their spiritual life as believers on this Earth.

God can cut the fruitless branch out of the vine (Joh 15:6).
Jesus will not receive the lukewarm, nor them that do iniquity, only them that do the will of the Father.
Dan Corner has written a book about conditional salvation. Every one can make up his own mind. This life is the dressing room for eternity. Make sure you have the right faith, that is not fruitless.

Consider John 15:4-6 in the light of 1 Corinthians 3:11-15. John 15:4-6 is commonly misunderstood as saying that salvation can be lost if you do not remain in Christ, but this is not talking about the believer's permanent and unbreakable position in Christ which occurs with the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The believer is in union with Christ and this position is permanent and cannot be lost. But Abiding in Christ refers to the believer's day to day, moment by moment rapport with Christ. Abiding in Christ is being filled with the Spirit. Of being in fellowship. This abiding in Christ is broken every time a believer sins, and is restored when the believer simply names the sin as per 1 John 1:9. The believer who never acknowledges his sins remains out of fellowship and under the control of his sin nature. Such a believer cannot produce good fruit - works which at the judgment seat of Christ which will be found to be 'gold, silver and precious stones' which are rewardable. Instead, his works will be found to be 'wood, hay and straw' which will be burned up though the believer himself is saved.

1 Corinthians 3:13 each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14] If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15] If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.