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A real answer would be appreciated . . . since it is undeniable that they were primitive savages, filled with barbaric beliefs and superstitions and not very knowledgeable about reality (=ignorant).
Why we 'deserve' hell [biblical hell = common grave of mankind ] is because we sin.
If Adam had never sinned, where would Adam be today ?
According to Scripture there was No death/grave in Eden only Everlasting life on Earth if obedient to God.
Adam was created as a perfectly healthy human with a sound heart,mind and body.
Once Adam broke God's law, then Adam lost his healthy human perfection.
Adam disconnect himself from his source of life.
Kind of like disconnecting a fan from its power source. The unplugged fan slowly winds down until it stops [ dies ].
Adam 'returned' to where Adam started which was the dust of the ground.
Adam started from the dust and Adam 'returned' to the dust.
No life in dust. No life in ashes. Just a state as if one was not conscious.- Ecclesiastes 9 v 5
Since we are Not responsible for what Adam did, God arranged that we could have the opportunity to live even if we sin.
If we could stop sinning we would not die. Because we sin we die [ Romans 6 vs 23, 7 ]
The dead [ except for those committing the unforgivable sin -Matthew 12 v 32; Hebrews 6 vs 4-6 ] go to hell.
Not some unbiblical hell of permanent torture, but to the Bible's temporary hell until resurrected out of hell.
So, it is not so much 'deserving' for what Adam did, but that we can not stop sinning no matter how hard we try.
The dead are buried, so to speak, in the Bible's hell as Jesus went to hell the day he died.- Acts 2 vs 27,31
Jesus taught sleep in death.- John 11 vs 11-14
Revelation 20 vs 13,14 mentions that all in the Bible's hell will be 'delivered up' out of biblical hell.
'Delivered up' as in meaning resurrected out of hell. Then emptied-out hell is cast vacant into a symbolic' second death'
No one is left in the Bible's hell [ gravedom ] when biblical hell is cast empty into ' second death ' for vacated hell.
Why do today's 'churches' [ churches of Christendom ] teach a non-biblical religious-myth hell is because of tradition not Scripture. Non-biblical teachings became mixed with Scripture, and the clergy ignore Scripture in favor of tradition outside of Scripture but teach it as Scripture. That does not make Scripture as wrong, but makes clergy teachings as wrong.
Why teach a false permanent burning forever religious-myth hell is apparently because they want it that way ?
They apparently think the flock enjoys or wants to hear their enemies will be roasted in pain forever.
The flock apparently wants to have teachers to 'tickle their ears', so to speak, as to say what they want to hear.
- 2nd Timothy 4 v 3 mentions that the time will come [ it's here ] when they will Not endure sound doctrine, but after their own desires, they will have teachers for themselves in order to have their ' ears tickled ' [ itching ears to hear spoken what they want to hear ]. After all, isn't it the flock who pays the preachers salary ? He wouldn't want to loose his salary, so why not preach what the flock wants to hear ?
I thank you very much for your response, it shed a lot of light on what I was thinking. Though I am unsure of other things you have mentioned (simply just returning to dust the second death being symbolic), your structure is sound and the messages clear.
But I believe the flock are afraid to say anything to their pastors. True, they (indirectly) pay the pastor, but they can't really control what he says. After all, we can't even raise our hand in church or we'd just get steamrolled right over! But it's also true that if his preachings get to a point the members can vote to have a different pastor.
Plus, even if we could say our concerns, I bet a lot of the congregation are afraid to come out and say what they found in personal study in order to not mess up what has been their own sound church structure for so so long. Basically, I believe they don't want to be "that guy".
Feel free to cite whatever you think supports the claim . . . however it is worded. It does not exist in any shape form or word arrangement. It is ENTIRELY the "precepts and doctrines of men."A real answer would be appreciated . . . since it is undeniable that they were primitive savages, filled with barbaric beliefs and superstitions and not very knowledgeable about reality (=ignorant).
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC
My father/son response is part of my real answer.
I could give you the same verses, but you would reject it, or reason you way around it or whatever - just like we do over and over again. I have just realized that going over and over this stuff is not what Christianity is about.
You want the verses... here.
2 Peter 1:16-21 - For we did not follow cleverly devised tales when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty. 17 For when He received honor and glory from God the Father, such an utterance as this was made to Him by the Majestic Glory, "This is My beloved Son with whom I am well-pleased"-- 18 and we ourselves heard this utterance made from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
19 So we have the prophetic word made more sure, to which you do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star arises in your hearts. 20 But know this first of all, that no prophecy of Scripture is a matter of one's own interpretation, 21 for no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God.
1 Corinthians 2:10-13 - For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God. 11 For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so the thoughts of God no one knows except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God, 13 which things we also speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Spirit, combining spiritual thoughts with spiritual words.
The Holy Spirit is responsible for the content working through those who wrote the content. And He is inside of believers today revealing the thoughts of God. He will not contradict Himself on the content He is responsible for. That's is just part of the Holy Spirit's character in being in union with God.
Yes, we are not dealing directly w/ original content. I believe God is in sovereign control to ensure the message carried down through the years is sufficient to fulfill the purpose of making disciples of Christ.
That's all you are going to get from me on that.
Do you care to answer the question about why a son trusts his father? You are the PhD - should not be difficult. It does lead to my answer.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pcamps
Mystic I love you so much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
The feeling is mutual, brother.
I don't get it, MysticPhD. You were practically demanding that DRob4JC back up his basis for his beliefs, and when he very reluctantly does, your next reply is to return praise on one of your posts. You didn't even address him at all. I'm not trying to be nosy or so, but I just noticed it and it seems very disrespectful.
At least give him the courtesy of either refuting (most likely anyway ) or supporting his post to you.
I thank you very much for your response, it shed a lot of light on what I was thinking. Though I am unsure of other things you have mentioned (simply just returning to dust the second death being symbolic), your structure is sound and the messages clear.
.
And thank you also for your reply.
Where did Adam start? Adam had no pre-human existence anywhere.
Adam was made from the dust of the earth.
Adam did not become animated until God breathed the breath of life in Adam.- Genesis 2 v 7
Then, [ not before ] but then Adam became [ or came to be ] a living soul.
Since Adam then became a sinning soul [ Ezekiel 18 vs 4,20 ] then Adam died.
Since Adam started from the dust, then Adam 'returned' [ went back ] to where he started.- Genesis 3 v 19
There was No post-mortem penalties for Adam.
Revelation is highly symbolic and the expression 'second death' is symbolic, but symbolic of what ?
According to Rev. 21 v 8 Satan ends up in 'second death' [ No mention of Satan ever being in the Bible's hell 'sheol ]
According to Hebrews 2 v 14 B Jesus destroys Satan. [ Romans 16 v 20; Genesis 3 v 15 ]
So, 'second death' would be a fitting term for being destroyed forever. [ annihilated ]
Satan is wicked and all wicked ones will be destroyed forever according to Psalm 92 v 7.
I don't get it, MysticPhD. You were practically demanding that DRob4JC back up his basis for his beliefs, and when he very reluctantly does, your next reply is to return praise on one of your posts. You didn't even address him at all. I'm not trying to be nosy or so, but I just noticed it and it seems very disrespectful.
At least give him the courtesy of either refuting (most likely anyway ) or supporting his post to you.
And thank you also for your reply.
Where did Adam start? Adam had no pre-human existence anywhere.
Adam was made from the dust of the earth.
Adam did not become animated until God breathed the breath of life in Adam.- Genesis 2 v 7
Then, [ not before ] but then Adam became [ or came to be ] a living soul.
Since Adam then became a sinning soul [ Ezekiel 18 vs 4,20 ] then Adam died.
Since Adam started from the dust, then Adam 'returned' [ went back ] to where he started.- Genesis 3 v 19
There was No post-mortem penalties for Adam.
Revelation is highly symbolic and the expression 'second death' is symbolic, but symbolic of what ?
According to Rev. 21 v 8 Satan ends up in 'second death' [ No mention of Satan ever being in the Bible's hell 'sheol ]
According to Hebrews 2 v 14 B Jesus destroys Satan. [ Romans 16 v 20; Genesis 3 v 15 ]
So, 'second death' would be a fitting term for being destroyed forever. [ annihilated ]
Satan is wicked and all wicked ones will be destroyed forever according to Psalm 92 v 7.
That is all sound, and that's good. Yet Jesus stressed some sort of emphasis of post-mortem consequences. An example would be the narrow road that leads to life and the broad way that leads to destruction (Matthew 7:13), and doing away with the sinning body part (Matthew 18:9). So how does all this fall in?
And you are right. Revelation is symbolic and highly allusive, but it doesn't sound like Satan will be completely destroyed, for Revelation 20:10 says he, the false prophet and the beast will be tormented day and night forever and ever. So how can this verse be seen as he will be destroyed completely? I'm not attacking you, I'm genuinely curious.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC
Not reluctant on my part - FYI.
I appreciate you bringing it up - thanks.
I'm sorry, from your post you said how you know how he's gonna basically circumvent what you were going to say anyway and you knew how he was going to respond to it, so I mistakenly insinuated that you would feel reluctant to give the verses to him. I'm sorry.
But you're welcome about addressing the issue. Though it was mainly for MysticPhD and I wanted to see if he just simply overlooked you or whatever may have happened.
I'm sorry, from your post you said how you know how he's gonna basically circumvent what you were going to say anyway and you knew how he was going to respond to it, so I mistakenly insinuated that you would feel reluctant to give the verses to him. I'm sorry.
But you're welcome about addressing the issue. Though it was mainly for MysticPhD and I wanted to see if he just simply overlooked you or whatever may have happened.
Now I see... that comment was about the run of the mill practice of batting verses around like a pinata at a kid's birthday party - and how it is ineffective for the most part in this forum.
My guess is he didn't overlook anything. He saw this as well as the My Basis for Believing the Bible thread. There must not have been anything he could have said to make me look bad. And he certainly won't lower himself to compliment or agree with anyone stupid enough to believe in the writings of ignorant primitive savages.
I don't get it, MysticPhD. You were practically demanding that DRob4JC back up his basis for his beliefs, and when he very reluctantly does, your next reply is to return praise on one of your posts. You didn't even address him at all. I'm not trying to be nosy or so, but I just noticed it and it seems very disrespectful.
At least give him the courtesy of either refuting (most likely anyway ) or supporting his post to you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DRob4JC
Now I see... that comment was about the run of the mill practice of batting verses around like a pinata at a kid's birthday party - and how it is ineffective for the most part in this forum.
My guess is he didn't overlook anything. He saw this as well as the My Basis for Believing the Bible thread. There must not have been anything he could have said to make me look bad. And he certainly won't lower himself to compliment or agree with anyone stupid enough to believe in the writings of ignorant primitive savages.
To be absolutely clear . . . God did NOT DICTATE anything to our ignorant ancestors. Inspiration MUST be interpreted using the existing knowledge, beliefs and superstitions of the receiver, period. We disagree fundamentally about this so no further response is likely to alter your mistaken views. You do not understand what 1 Cor 2 means about interpreting the scriptures spiritually and not carnally , , , and that produces radically different interpretations. As long as you believe the Bible to be the inerrant DICTATED word of God and not merely USEFUL (profitable) for instruction . . . we have no basis for discussion.
I believe Christ is the Living Word of God and that His Holy Spirit (Comforter) is available within our consciousness to guide us to the truth God has "written in our heart." I read the scriptures with the "mind of Christ" (WWJT) as HE revealed Himself to us . . . but you and those with your beliefs read them with the "mind of Jehovah" (YHWH) as described by our ignorant ancestors. Fortunately, following Christ is the most important . . . NOT what we believe ABOUT Him. I follow Christ through "love of God and each other" daily and repenting when I don't . . . as He told His disciples to do. How do you follow Christ?
Now I see... that comment was about the run of the mill practice of batting verses around like a pinata at a kid's birthday party - and how it is ineffective for the most part in this forum.
My guess is he didn't overlook anything. He saw this as well as the My Basis for Believing the Bible thread. There must not have been anything he could have said to make me look bad. And he certainly won't lower himself to compliment or agree with anyone stupid enough to believe in the writings of ignorant primitive savages.
Yeah, and back and forth the pinata will go into eternity. I more than completely understand. But that is just within our nature to make the other side see our point, I guess. I lol'ed at your last sentence, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
To be absolutely clear . . . God did NOT DICTATE anything to our ignorant ancestors. Inspiration MUST be interpreted using the existing knowledge, beliefs and superstitions of the receiver, period. We disagree fundamentally about this so no further response is likely to alter your mistaken views. You do not understand what 1 Cor 2 means about interpreting the scriptures spiritually and not carnally , , , and that produces radically different interpretations. As long as you believe the Bible to be the inerrant DICTATED word of God and not merely USEFUL (profitable) for instruction . . . we have no basis for discussion.
I believe Christ is the Living Word of God and that His Holy Spirit (Comforter) is available within our consciousness to guide us to the truth God has "written in our heart." I read the scriptures with the "mind of Christ" (WWJT) as HE revealed Himself to us . . . but you and those with your beliefs read them with the "mind of Jehovah" (YHWH) as described by our ignorant ancestors. Fortunately, following Christ is the most important . . . NOT what we believe ABOUT Him. I follow Christ through "love of God and each other" daily and repenting when I don't . . . as He told His disciples to do. How do you follow Christ?
Ok, you replied. I'm glad and hereby revoke your status as a non-replier, lol.
That is all sound, and that's good. Yet Jesus stressed some sort of emphasis of post-mortem consequences. An example would be the narrow road that leads to life and the broad way that leads to destruction (Matthew 7:13), and doing away with the sinning body part (Matthew 18:9). So how does all this fall in?
And you are right. Revelation is symbolic and highly allusive, but it doesn't sound like Satan will be completely destroyed, for Revelation 20:10 says he, the false prophet and the beast will be tormented day and night forever and ever. So how can this verse be seen as he will be destroyed completely? I'm not attacking you, I'm genuinely curious.
I'm sorry, from your post you said how you know how he's gonna basically circumvent what you were going to say anyway and you knew how he was going to respond to it, so I mistakenly insinuated that you would feel reluctant to give the verses to him. I'm sorry.
But you're welcome about addressing the issue. Though it was mainly for MysticPhD and I wanted to see if he just simply overlooked you or whatever may have happened.
Right, the broad way to 'destruction' No post-mortem consequences after: destruction.
Jesus gave the choice between life and perishing at John 3 v 16. Perish as in: destruction.
That is also the choice at 2nd Peter 3 v 9 repent or perish [ be destroyed ]
All wicked ones will be destroyed forever, not burning forever.- Psalm 92 v 7
The 'sinning body part' Matthew [ 5 v 22-29; 18 vs 8,9 ] is not advocating self-mutilation but stressing metaphorically being willing to cut out of one's life anything spiritually harmful. For example: eye can offend if watching porn. Kill off, so to speak, such bad deeds.- Romans 8 v 13.
Yes, tormented, Not tortured, forever. The torment for Satan is 'second death' according to Rev. 21 v 8.
Jesus destroys Satan according to Hebrews 2 v 14 B [ see also Romans 16 v 20; Genesis 3 v 15 ]
So, 'second death' is a fitting term for: destruction.
Satan was never in the Bible's hell and never will be. Satan does not gain everlasting life, but will end up in 'second death' [ destruction ]
Also, please note what the KJV Bible translates in English as everlasting fire and hell fire is from the word: Gehenna
In brief, Gehenna was a garbage pit outside of Jerusalem where things were destroyed not kept burning forever.
So, Jesus' use of the word ' Gehenna ' would have been a fitting word for: destruction.
Gospel writer Luke wrote that after the death of the apostles religious lies would be taught to fleece the flock of God.
- Acts 20 vs 29,30. That is why people think of the biblical hell as a permanent torture place instead of the temporary grave. Jesus was temporarily in hell before God resurrected Jesus out of hell. Jesus now has the Keys to unlock hell.
[ Acts 2 vs 27,31,32; 3 v 15; 13 vs 30,37; Psalm 16 v 10; Rev. 1 v 18 ]
Jesus would have been in a sleep-like state. That is why Jesus taught sleep in death at John 11 vs 11-14.
Jesus was well educated in the Hebrew OT Scriptures that also teach sleep in death.
Such as: Psalms 6 v 5; 13 v 3; 115 v 17; 146 v 4; Daniel 12 vs 2,13; Ecclesiastes 9 vs 5,10
Hope the ^ above ^ reply is of some help for you.
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) or supporting his post to you.
