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Actually I'm trying to teach and hope that people will evaluate their beliefs in a logical and open minded manner.
I suspect that will not happen.
Questioning my motives again sidesteps the questions. It does not answer what has been asked.
Logical? You presented a strawman fallacy as part of your discussion on the topic of Love. How is that logical? You got called on it and those that you think your teaching are now more embolden against your views and credibility. If you want pople to re-evaluate their beliefs, you need to come with facts and reasonable theories that can stand the test.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,922,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep
Logical? You presented a strawman fallacy as part of your discussion on the topic of Love. How is that logical? You got called on it and those that you think your teaching are now more embolden against your views and credibility. If you want pople to re-evaluate their beliefs, you need to come with facts and reasonable theories that can stand the test.
Horse pucky. Please, I understand what a straw man is and I understand what a logical fallacy is. The two are not the same or complimentary to each other. If appears you know the words but you don't know the meaning or their use in debate.
I know what John said 14:15.
I also know it was reinforced in John 14:21:
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Again... Jesus says his love is conditional. Conditional on following commands. Just like an abusive husband would make his love conditional for his wife to follow His commands.
Horse pucky. Please, I understand what a straw man is and I understand what a logical fallacy is. The two are not the same or complimentary to each other. If appears you know the words but you don't know the meaning or their use in debate.
I know what John said 14:15.
I also know it was reinforced in John 14:21:
He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.
Again... Jesus says his love is conditional. Conditional on following commands. Just like an abusive husband would make his love conditional for his wife to follow His commands.
What is so hard about seeing that.
Yeah I know a straw man is. You presented one and got called out on it. But we can go back and revisit John 14:15 if you like. In fact, let's do this.
In John 14:15 what is the verb and what is the direct object in the verse:
Your ignoring that John 14:21 reinforces the requirement to keep his commands.
Just like an abusive spouse tries to control the other partner.
Let's analyze what it ACTUALLY says cupper3. Tell me what is the verb and the direct object. Don't you want everyone to see that your right? Don't you want everyone to think logically? Can't get any more logical than the approach I'm taking with you here.
Your ignoring that John 14:21 reinforces the requirement to keep his commands.
Just like an abusive spouse tries to control the other partner.
Cupper, you are right. If a god is demanding to be loved and obeyed in order to be able to love you in return, than that god is no different than an abusive, controlling spouse. I'm about 100% sure that any unversalist, Christian or otherwise, would agree with you.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,922,771 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep
Let's analyze what it ACTUALLY says cupper3. Tell me what is the verb and the direct object. Don't you want everyone to see that your right? Don't you want everyone to think logically? Can't get any more logical than the approach I'm taking with you here.
IF is the first word and qualifier. Right?
So ...IF you love me (says the abusive spouse), THEN you will follow my commands.
But let's not take my word for it.
Let's see what some concordances say what this means.
Barnes notes:
Keep my commandments - This is the only proper evidence of love to Jesus, for mere profession is no proof of love; but that love for him which leads us to do all his will, to love each other, to deny ourselves, to take up our cross, and to follow him through evil report and through good report, is true attachment. The evidence which we have that a child loves its parents is when that child is willing, without hesitation, gainsaying, or complaining, to do all that the parent requires him to do.
Gills exposition of the bible:
keep my commandments: Christ is Lord over his people, as he is the Creator and Redeemer of them, and as he is an head and husband to them, and as such he has a right to issue out his commands,
People's New Testament:
The Revised Version gives the true idea: If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments. Obedience is the fruit of love.
Those are three. In all cases the emphasis is on the command and that's the commands are followed or there's no love. That's pretty well what an abusive spouse demands also.
So ...IF you love me (says the abusive spouse), THEN you will follow my commands.
But let's not take my word for it.
Let's see what some concordances say what this means.
Barnes notes:
Keep my commandments - This is the only proper evidence of love to Jesus, for mere profession is no proof of love; but that love for him which leads us to do all his will, to love each other, to deny ourselves, to take up our cross, and to follow him through evil report and through good report, is true attachment. The evidence which we have that a child loves its parents is when that child is willing, without hesitation, gainsaying, or complaining, to do all that the parent requires him to do.
Gills exposition of the bible:
keep my commandments: Christ is Lord over his people, as he is the Creator and Redeemer of them, and as he is an head and husband to them, and as such he has a right to issue out his commands,
People's New Testament:
The Revised Version gives the true idea: If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments. Obedience is the fruit of love.
Those are three. In all cases the emphasis is on the command and that's the commands are followed or there's no love. That's pretty well what an abusive spouse demands also.
Which word in the verse was "spouse". Or did you present a red herring?
BTW - you only get minus points for guoting Gill to me. I'm a universalist for clarification.
Location: In a little house on the prairie - literally
10,202 posts, read 7,922,771 times
Reputation: 4561
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep
Which word in the verse was "spouse". Or did you present a red herring?
BTW - you only get minus points for guoting Gill to me. I'm a universalist for clarification.
So you agree now that the emphasis is on the command for love rather than anything else?
I was drawing an analogy which I hope is obvious the first time I brought it up. One cannot demand love one needs to earn love. When one demands that your commands are followed they are not earning love they are demanding it.
So you agree now that the emphasis is on the command for love rather than anything else?
I was drawing an analogy which I hope is obvious the first time I brought it up. One cannot demand love one needs to earn love. When one demands that your commands are followed they are not earning love they are demanding it.
That is an abusive relationship.
Pretty sure nobody was ever disputing your definition of an abusive relationship.
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