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Well if you really believe God is choosing to save some and others he is not choosing, why would you waste your time arguing about theology, getting saved, etc... since it is, as you say, up to God.
Because God works through us, and we do not know whom he has chosen.
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Originally Posted by Heartsong
It means God predestined mankind for salvation.
I hope that's true. I do not want to see my atheist brother and friend suffer for their unbelief; they are good people according to the laws of society. I don't believe though, and it is a hard thing to accept. We only want to see the bad people punished, and those that are good rewarded; but we aren't God. I trust that whatever it will be, even though I cannot understand how it can happen, that it will be good and just because God is good and just.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong
Were you not at one time a vessel of God's wrath? Were you not a vessel of dishonor with whom God was patient.
I still am. There are none of us that are not under the wrath of God, even when he effectually calls us because we still must exist in our fleshly bodies; it's never going to go away until we die.
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Originally Posted by nateswift
So, God picked out whom He would save, but not whom He would not? And the ones who were not picked will be punished for their unbelief, but they weren't predestined?
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Originally Posted by pcamps
There is flaws all over the show in the doctrine of those who in their own eyes are the elite.
Those who feel a sense of pride in it completely miss the point. They do not understand it at all. The doctrine is incredibly humbling. It's also a difficult one to accept and I completely understand why someone would have reservations about it.
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Originally Posted by Vizio
Let me ask you: can God sin?
That's what I feel is so difficult to understand about pre-destination, is that it makes it seem as though God is the author of sin, yet He is not. It also makes it seem as though there is no free will, which there is. I think it is perhaps that I do not understand what will is (from reading over the doctrines, I see there is a meaning in it which I haven't considered before and which I don't fully grasp yet); I still have a lot of studying to do on it.
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Originally Posted by twin.spin
There is no other explanation other than it is based on God's will and pleasure that predestined the believer while those who are damned are so because of their rejection, and had God's foreknowledge of this.
And yes, it's not meant to be fully understandable on this side of heaven.
That's what I try to keep in my mind: I'm not going to be able to fully understand this. Also something important is that what is pleasing to us might not be pleasing to God (it probably isn't). He is our Lord and sovereign: are we going to put Him first or mankind? I know He cares a lot about his creation, but I feel He in no way intends for us to place them before worship of Himself. I feel this might not be a pleasing idea to those who are enamored of the idea of being free and in control of things. Yet I don't see how we can believe ourselves to be lords of our own bodies and still be given fully (as fully as we can be in our fleshly bodies) to the worship of God. It involves complete submission to Him and realizing Him as the only one to whom we owe obeisance. He's not some friend who's cool to hang around and will give us neat things (that's one extreme I realize); He is our God and He commands us to worship Him.
Well, that's all the posts I had time to go through before work (and in a very rushed manner, so I'm sure I'm not being as articulate as I would like). Interesting discussion though, lots of good thoughts and ideas.
I'm having difficulty in seeing how you distinguish between the "prepared" when it is applied to destruction and when it is applied to mercy. If the "preparation" is what is meant by pre-destination, what is the difference? It sounds like you are saying that everyone is pre-destined to destruction but somehow mercy steps in and changes that "destination?" Verse 18 says,"Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden."
God is beyond human reason and logic ... that has to be a given.
There is no logic in the truth that God takes the credit for those who are saved while holding accountable the unbeliever for their rejection... yet that is what scriptures teach.
Fact is no human logic can comprehend when God reveals that there is a one sided coin to predestination. The human mind is not geared to think in such realities.
And if you read carefully enough, God doesn't attempt to explain it to the writer either - it just is.
The best answer several theologian gave ( which I can't go beyond of) is this:
"God's foreknowledge is not causative," the theologians say. Simply put, the fact that God knows
in advance that something will happen and that God's plan takes the event into account does not mean that God forced the event to occur.
and
As difficult as this may be for finite human beings, we must distinguish between God's foreknowledge and his will. God knows everything that will or could happen, but he does not cause everything that does happen.
And that is the point of the question you decline to answer, "what was Paul saying?" "How does patience toward individuals who are going to be destroyed according to that perception apply?" Let's stop "teaching" and discuss.
If you were a NARC would you bust a pusher or wait and see where his trail leads?...
The best answer several theologian gave ( which I can't go beyond of) is this:
"God's foreknowledge is not causative," the theologians say. Simply put, the fact that God knows
in advance that something will happen and that God's plan takes the event into account does not mean that God forced the event to occur.
and
As difficult as this may be for finite human beings, we must distinguish between God's foreknowledge and his will. God knows everything that will or could happen, but he does not cause everything that does happen.
God says that He declares the end from the beginning....God has even caused people to sin, I read it in the OT somewhere...
If you were a NARC would you bust a pusher or wait and see where his trail leads?...
If I were a narc and I had a suspected pusher who was obviously trying to hide something and avoid scrutiny, I'd bust him. It's called "probable cause." Are you saying that God leaves people out in the world in order to find out who else is being bad? Is that an answer to my question?
God is beyond human reason and logic ... that has to be a given.
In other words, "it makes no sense." Now let's consider whether the idea that "pre-destined" is about classes of responders to the Gospel message and see how that fits in with other scriptures about spreading the message and choosing life and all that sort of thing........ and will you look at that! It does make sense.
Then you consider that Calvin started with an image of God's sovereignty that amounts to micromanaging and look at his presentations to see that he is what we call today a controller and his aberration and its results make even more sense as a character flaw in the formulator and not in the message of Christ.
That's what I feel is so difficult to understand about pre-destination, is that it makes it seem as though God is the author of sin, yet He is not. It also makes it seem as though there is no free will, which there is. I think it is perhaps that I do not understand what will is (from reading over the doctrines, I see there is a meaning in it which I haven't considered before and which I don't fully grasp yet); I still have a lot of studying to do on it.
The reason I ask if you think God can sin is to make a point. God cannot sin. It is not within his nature. He is perfectly holy and just -- he just cannot sin and be imperfect.
Now...if we accept that....we can see that God doesn't necessarily have "free will" according to how most people define it--as he cannot actually choose to do ANYTHING he wants. So why does our own "free will" require that we be able to choose God or evil of our own accord?
If I were a narc and I had a suspected pusher who was obviously trying to hide something and avoid scrutiny, I'd bust him. It's called "probable cause." Are you saying that God leaves people out in the world in order to find out who else is being bad? Is that an answer to my question?
Well, I don't fail in an honest attempt to discuss the issues.
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