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Also, the first sacrament is baptism. What Christian doubts the necessity of baptism for the initiate into Christianity if the initiate claims faith in Christ?
Heresy. Catholicism insults Jesus in every way. Jesus died for your sins. The work is His and the glory is His. Catholicism robs Jesus of His work and glory by trying to make their works of value before God. Catholicism turns faith into a work. How many people have been disqualified by the "requirements" Catholicism bestows on truth seekers? How many people participate in catholic traditions and religious practices thinking all of this is saving their soul when it all will amount to nothing? Is your faith in water or is your faith in Jesus and His shed blood? There is no process in being born again. When you here the truth of Jesus and believe in His finished work you are born again. No religion can save you and no works can save you.
Water baptism is an act of faith unless someone says you must do it which is what Catholicism does. The moment you tell someone you must do something to gain something then faith has become a work. There is no faith in works. Catholics trust in their works to save them. Protestants trust in the grace and mercy of Jesus to save them by His once and for all sacrifice.
Idolatry is when an object is used to channel worship to a deity.
If they think the object has special powers that's not Idol worship, that's just plain goofy.
If they are praying to the deity and believe their prayer is channeled through the object that is Idolatry.
Simply liking money for example is not Idolatry as some ignorant people claim, even worship of the physical money is not Idolatry. Now if the Money is being used to pray to a deity if the person believes that the prayer is channeled through the money that is Idolatry.
Christians have a bad habit of not properly understanding words important to other religions.
Now if some one where worshiping money as a higher power, that is creating a false god.
If a person actually believed the object it's self is the deity, then that is creating a false god.
For example when you claim the bread is the body of Christ broken for you, that is creating a false god out of the bread that you are ingesting believing that it saves you, that is of course if you actually believe the bread is his body.
This is why there are two commandments.
One about other gods
and one about Idols.
They mean two different things.
And are prohibiting two different things but are both about the nature of worship.
To add to that... the term "worship" in ancient context often connoted "offering sacrifices to..."
This seems to have been prevalent among both Jews and pagans. Even Genesis shows this with the story of Cain and Able.
Early Catholic martyrs often refused to offer sacrifices to the pagan Roman gods. Otherwise... the Romans probably would have tolerated Christians.
Drawing back now to the sacrifice of the Mass. This might be argued--the Mass--as the highest form of worship for Catholics. But then Catholicism did not begin circa 1500 but extends literally into ancient times before the so called "Fall of Rome." This is why the Catholic Mass makes use of an alter (sacrifices being made on alters). The tabernacle where the Eucharist (Word of God) is kept comes from Judaism in which the Torah (Word of God) was/is kept in a tabernacle.
Heresy. Catholicism insults Jesus in every way. Jesus died for your sins. The work is His and the glory is His. Catholicism robs Jesus of His work and glory by trying to make their works of value before God. Catholicism turns faith into a work. How many people have been disqualified by the "requirements" Catholicism bestows on truth seekers? How many people participate in catholic traditions and religious practices thinking all of this is saving their soul when it all will amount to nothing? Is your faith in water or is your faith in Jesus and His shed blood? There is no process in being born again. When you here the truth of Jesus and believe in His finished work you are born again. No religion can save you and no works can save you.
Water baptism is an act of faith unless someone says you must do it which is what Catholicism does. The moment you tell someone you must do something to gain something then faith has become a work. There is no faith in works. Catholics trust in their works to save them. Protestants trust in the grace and mercy of Jesus to save them by His once and for all sacrifice.
By what authority do you have to claim me a heretic for what I said?
Are you Muslim now, capable of issuing your own fatwas or something?
You're unaware the Luther Church recites the Nicene Creed too? Pay special note to the words I highlight in blue bold. And take note of the absence of the term "bible" in the whole Creed.
As it would appear you are guilty of heresy even among many of the Protestant Fathers. I may be wrong but it's my understanding all the Protestant Fathers recognized water as necessary for Christian initiation through baptism.
1979 Episcopal Church (United States) Book of Common Prayer We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven:
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary,
and was made man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered death and was buried.
On the third day he rose again
in accordance with the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.
I just googled this and I see the Wisconsin Evangelicals of Lutherans changed the word "catholic" (Greek word that means "universal") in the Nicene Creed to the word "christian."
The Nicene Creed was written around A.D. 325 in defense of the true Christian faith. The Council at Nicea developed it, expanding on the deity of Christ, in order to safeguard the apostles' teaching.
NICENE CREED
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation, he came down from heaven, was incarnate of the Holy Spirit and the virgin Mary, and became fully human. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate. He suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son, who in unity with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified, who has spoken through the prophets. We believe in one holy Christian and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come. Amen.
Heresy. Catholicism insults Jesus in every way. Jesus died for your sins. The work is His and the glory is His. Catholicism robs Jesus of His work and glory by trying to make their works of value before God. Catholicism turns faith into a work. How many people have been disqualified by the "requirements" Catholicism bestows on truth seekers? How many people participate in catholic traditions and religious practices thinking all of this is saving their soul when it all will amount to nothing? Is your faith in water or is your faith in Jesus and His shed blood? There is no process in being born again. When you here the truth of Jesus and believe in His finished work you are born again. No religion can save you and no works can save you.
Water baptism is an act of faith unless someone says you must do it which is what Catholicism does. The moment you tell someone you must do something to gain something then faith has become a work. There is no faith in works. Catholics trust in their works to save them. Protestants trust in the grace and mercy of Jesus to save them by His once and for all sacrifice.
Man made Traditions don't save us.
Repenting with the intention of changing for the better saves us. We are saved by trying our best to do good while knowing that we can't be perfect.
So the moment you tell some one you must do some thing to gain something else it becomes a work?
People have been telling us that we have to accept the blood of the lamb doctrine to be saved, so that means you've turned accepting Jesus as a sacrifice into a work and your right it is the choice to believe that is a work. The action of accepting it is doing something to gain something else, wow that's a work alright.
When you say there is no faith in works what exactly do you mean?
By what authority do you have to claim me a heretic for what I said?
Are you Muslim now, capable of issuing your own fatwas or something?
You're unaware the Luther Church recites the Nicene Creed too? Pay special note to the words I highlight in blue bold. And take note of the absence of the term "bible" in the whole Creed.
As it would appear you are guilty of heresy even among many of the Protestant Fathers. I may be wrong but it's my understanding all the Protestant Fathers recognized water as necessary for Christian initiation through baptism.
I just googled this and I see the Wisconsin Evangelicals of Lutherans changed the word "catholic" (Greek word that means "universal") in the Nicene Creed to the word "christian."
Any teaching that promotes anything against saved by grace through faith in Jesus is heresy. Mary is praised more than Jesus in the catholic church. Mary is not a God. She was a sinner like everyone else yet Catholicism calls her the queen of Heaven. Mary needed the blood of Jesus to save her just like the rest of us. Jesus said we must be born again to be saved. He NEVER said you must be water baptized to be saved. This is a religious teaching ripped out of context ushered into each new generation by the pride of men.
romans519, I don't really want to get into a back and forth with you in this thread. You believe as you do. That's fine with me. There are millions in Nepal, Thailand, and Indonesia that believe as they do. Am I to get an aneurism over it?
But with respects to Europe and the United States would you say those from historically Protestant and Catholic strongholds have lost their faith?
And would you say you have lost the faith of the Protestant Fathers (e.g., Luther, Calvin etc.) that came before you?
romans519, I don't really want to get into a back and forth with you in this thread. You believe as you do. That's fine with me. There are millions in Nepal, Thailand, and Indonesia that believe as they do. Am I to get an aneurism over it?
But with respects to Europe and the United States would you say those from historically Protestant and Catholic strongholds have lost their faith?
And would you say you have lost the faith of the Protestant Fathers (e.g., Luther, Calvin etc.) that came before you?
My faith is in the covenant of grace Jesus died to give us. I bring no works to this covenant. His obedience made me righteous. (Romans 5:19)
Do you even know what the Eucharistic sacrament is and what the sacrifice of the Mass is?
If the sacrifice of the Mass is what the Church proclaims it to be then your criticism is nonsensical. At best you could say then is that belief in the Eucharist during the sacrifice of the Mass is Catholics having trust/faith "on steroids," in "Christ's work on the cross."
Time collapses at the sacrifice of the Mass to Calvary.
Also, the first sacrament is baptism. What Christian doubts the necessity of baptism for the initiate into Christianity if the initiate claims faith in Christ?
Yes, I do know what the Mass is and what Catholics believe about the Eucharist. I stand by what I said. Saving faith cannot be in anything other than the finished work of Christ's sacrifice. I have a huge issue with the "sacrifice" of the Mass when Jesus said "it is finished" on the cross. So why does the Catholic tradition keep crucifying him over and over at every Mass?
Not sure what you mean about time collapses. I guess you're saying that the priest is "recreating" Calvary? But my question to you is "why"? The Bible says Christ died "once for all who believe".
We'll have to address Baptism in another thread, because I have doctrinal issues with infant baptism as well.
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I just googled this and I see the Wisconsin Evangelicals of Lutherans changed the word "catholic" (Greek word that means "universal") in the Nicene Creed to the word "christian." 
