Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
 
Old 08-10-2013, 09:20 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,931 posts, read 26,160,446 times
Reputation: 16087

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Not sure if you understood that the words of Mother Theresa in post #93 were in a quote box:

Emphasis is on a clean heart is a free heart. That is the eternal security, a clean heart.

But the rest of the statement still did not answer the question---How does belief in once saved always saved lead Christians to live holier lives?

The answer is---it doesn't!! In fact, it leads to the opposite. I've never seen an OSAS'er say, "Believing in once saved always saved will help you walk closer to Christ, give you a deeper and more meaningful understanding of what it is to obey your Lord, and open your eyes to see the people Jesus saw as needing mercy and kindness and blessing from His children."

No OSAS'er can say that, because most likely the OPPOSITE is true. One is MORE likely to see someone evade their responsibility as a servant of Christ, more likely to lie asleep instead of on watch as Jesus commanded us to be, and more likely to be insensitive to the needs of those He taught us to care for--why? Because there are no consequences for living exactly as the so-called "lost."

Now to me, if one is a true Christian, there is a common sense spiritual intuition that if something doesn't allow one to have a closer walk with Christ and become a more watchful and caring servant, then it doesn't come from Jesus. Why would God endorse a theology that doesn't lead people to be better servants? The answer is, He wouldn't---He doesn't. And people who really want to serve God want to find ways to walk closer to Him and to encourage others to walk closer to Him, not find ways to excuse people from the allegiance they owe the one that they call Lord.
The eternal security of the believer is one of the first things a believer needs to understand in order to be oriented to the grace of God. Without being grace oriented there can be no spiritual growth. One cannot advance spiritually when one is subject to the yoke of slavery as you are.
Galatians 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
The believer who understands that he is eternally secure is free from bondage to fear and free to pursue spiritual growth. He is not compelled out of fear to work for his salvation but is free to advance spiritually with the result that he will produce works. But whether he chooses to pursue spiritual growth or not has no bearing on the reality of the believer's eternal security.

Dresden, you do not walk in the freedom for which Christ set us free. You wear a yoke of slavery. You do not work out of love for God, but out of fear of losing your salvation. But if you have never simply trusted in the finished work of Christ on the Cross for your salvation you remain under condemnation still.

You simply cannot understand that while the believer is to pick up his cross and follow Jesus, that is not the basis for receiving eternal life. Salvation is a free gift which cannot be worked for, but can only be received freely by trusting in Jesus Christ.

The eternal security of the believer is not a license to sin. The disobedient believer is disciplined in time as a son. The believer's disobedience is handled as a family matter (See Hebrews 12:5-8).

Just like the Judaizers who taught that you could not be saved unless you got circumcised (See Acts 15:1) you falsely claim that you cannot be saved unless you work for it. You are a legalist. Legalism says 'do' in order to be saved. But grace says 'done'. The work of salvation was completed at the Cross. And a person receives that salvation by grace through faith in Christ. Not by works.

You are living in fear Dresden. Not in the freedom for which Christ set us free. And in trying to work for and earn your salvation instead of simply trusting in Christ alone for eternal life, you are simply working yourself deeper and deeper into a debt which you can never repay. You owe God perfect righteousness Dresden. And you will never have it through your own efforts. That is why God credits His own perfect righteousness to anyone who simply trusts in the finished work of Christ. But you reject God's righteousness and insist on trying to impress God with your own righteousness. And that is the basis for your condemnation.
Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.

 
Old 08-10-2013, 09:55 AM
 
Location: Somewhere
6,370 posts, read 6,993,761 times
Reputation: 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Read the black highlighted part, and then read everything else in that post!!!

And then stop asking me repeat questions which have already been answered earlier on this thread.
Mike, I didn't get your answer at all. The only thing I found in that comment was a statement filled with a spirit of doing unto others as you would not want done unto you.
 
Old 08-10-2013, 10:10 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,931 posts, read 26,160,446 times
Reputation: 16087
Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep View Post
Mike, I didn't get your answer at all. The only thing I found in that comment was a statement filled with a spirit of doing unto others as you would not want done unto you.
Post #119 directly answered your question. I told you to read the black highlighted part which answers your question 'What about for a lack of faith?'

I made no comment at all in that post about doing unto others as you would not want done unto you.
 
Old 08-10-2013, 10:11 AM
 
Location: Florida
76,952 posts, read 47,272,488 times
Reputation: 14763
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Let's see, the words were written to Christians. Are Christians ones who have salvation eternally? No need to be concerned about obedience to make their way to heaven? Yes, I think you say.

Then why would the author of Hebrews try to make any Christian think he would come short of that promise? Just empty words?

-"
If you keep reding the very next verse says he is talking about those who did not share the faith.


For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed
 
Old 08-10-2013, 11:27 AM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,931 posts, read 26,160,446 times
Reputation: 16087
For those who have not read the original post, I started this thread to post a study on the doctrine of eternal security by a grace oriented pastor who knows the Word of God. Salvation is by grace through faith in Christ Jesus. Grace is the policy of God toward fallen mankind. Grace is all that God is free to do for man on the basis of the Cross. Grace excludes human merit, human works as a means of salvation. Once a person has come to the Father through Jesus Christ through simple non-meritorious faith he is eternally saved no matter what sins he commits (and for which will be disciplined as a family member). Works are not an issue in salvation and so are not an issue in maintaining salvation. The believer is kept secure by the power of God. Not by his own efforts. Even if the believer loses his faith his eternal salvation is secure because the merit is not in the faith, but in the object of the faith which is Jesus Christ. Once you have been born again, you have eternal life forever. God does not revoke His gifts, and eternal life is stated in the Word of God to be a free gift.

Here again is the study originally posted at the beginning of this thread.

Excerpt:
Salvation is the result of a single non-meritorious act of faith on our part and relies totally upon the grace of God. We cannot do anything to earn or deserve it, nor can we do anything to lose it. Salvation is a grace gift from God through faith, EPH 2:8-9, For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, [it is] the gift of God; not as a result of works [any human effort to attain salvation, ref: Isaiah 64:6], so that no one may boast.
Doctrine of Eternal Security - Doctrines for download - Robert McLaughlin Bible Ministries / Grace Bible Church - bible doctrine truth in Christ


Many people couldn't care less about that study as is evidenced by the posts of those on this thread who oppose grace and embrace legalism. But if anyone is willing to be objective then the study is there for you to read. It's your choice.

And if you are interested in what I have said on this thread here are my post numbers. #1, 5, 9, 16, 18, 24, 29, 30, 33, 38, 40, 44, 79, 94, 96, 102, 106, 109, 111, 115, 118, 119, 126, 131, 133. Those post numbers will remain the same so long as no one's posts get removed for some reason.
 
Old 08-10-2013, 12:15 PM
 
6,675 posts, read 4,241,937 times
Reputation: 8441
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
Let's see, the words were written to Christians. Are Christians ones who have salvation eternally? No need to be concerned about obedience to make their way to heaven? Yes, I think you say.

Then why would the author of Hebrews try to make any Christian think he would come short of that promise? Just empty words?

No, you must do what other OSAS'ers do, begin to make explanations about the words and what they really mean, because inerrancy is really about a certain group's theories with regard to the actual words.

True Christians believe ALL the words. You must have Faith. You must have Works that show you have Faith. And you must Persevere. No explanations needed to soften Jesus' words about obedience or explanations about what James was really writing about.

For the most part, OSAS'ers haven't done any critical thinking of their own. They simply have accepted a false theology that is rampant in churches today. Finding God is a lifelong process that is finished when you have fought the good fight and run the race to the finish---oh, I know, Paul didn't really mean that with His words either. The words of the Scripture that are upheld to be inerrant, are unable to stand up on their own and mean what they say. They need help from junior theologians everywhere to be "explained" to people.

I don't hold with inerrancy of the words, but I think they plainly mean what they say, and were written that way so that on judgment day, none of us can stand before God and cry, "But I thought you meant----"
To say the book of Hebrews was written to Christians is simplistic and incomplete. The book of Hebrews was written to Hebrew (hence the book name) believers to show why the new covenant of grace and Jesus' finished work was superior to the law. It was an admonishment to the Hebrews not to go back under the law.

The rest mentioned in Hebrews 4 is rest from our own works. Christ did a finished work and we can't add to it. Works flow out of His grace and knowing His love. It has nothing to do with salvation.
 
Old 08-10-2013, 12:30 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,825 posts, read 12,432,209 times
Reputation: 1319
And for anybody who reads this and wonders why eternal security as it taught by the reformed \ baptist is unscriptural and is dangerous ... it is because it's unscriptural.

Such people like Chafer are what God warned about when he said:
Acts 20:30
Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

God plainly reminds believers from the errant inspired word:
Hebrews 3:14
We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

Hebrews 6:11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized.

Hebrews 10:26
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

1 Timothy 1:18-20
I am giving you this command in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by recalling them you may fight the battle well,
holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.


Jesus specifically teaches:
John 15:6
If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.


The same lying spirit that gets people to argue shell game word meanings like "all" \ "eternal" \ "hell" with UR is the exact same lying spirit that uses shell game word meanings like "fall from grace" \ "lose your reward" \ "shipwreched your faith".

At no time does Jesus teach that a person can not resort back to their former way of life... which is being spirtually dead ... when Jesus points out:
Mark 4:19
"the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful."

 
Old 08-10-2013, 12:43 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,931 posts, read 26,160,446 times
Reputation: 16087
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
And for anybody who reads this and wonders why eternal security as it taught by the reformed \ baptist is unscriptural and is dangerous ... it is because it's unscriptural.

Such people like Chafer are what God warned about when he said:
Acts 20:30
Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.

2 Peter 3:16
He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.

God plainly reminds believers from the errant inspired word:
Hebrews 3:14
We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

Hebrews 6:11 We want each of you to show this same diligence to the very end, so that what you hope for may be fully realized.

Hebrews 10:26
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God.

1 Timothy 1:18-20
I am giving you this command in keeping with the prophecies once made about you, so that by recalling them you may fight the battle well,
holding on to faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and so have suffered shipwreck with regard to the faith. Among them are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan to be taught not to blaspheme.


Jesus specifically teaches:
John 15:6
If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

John 3:36
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them.


The same lying spirit that gets people to argue shell game word meanings like "all" \ "eternal" \ "hell" with UR is the exact same lying spirit that uses shell game word meanings like "fall from grace" \ "lose your reward" \ "shipwreched your faith".

At no time does Jesus teach that a person can not resort back to their former way of life... which is being spirtually dead ... when Jesus points out:
Mark 4:19
"the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful."

On another thread, you implied that I am going to hell because I believe that Jesus will establish a literal physical Millennial kingdom on the earth when He returns, so.............

Last edited by Michael Way; 08-10-2013 at 12:55 PM..
 
Old 08-10-2013, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
10,688 posts, read 7,656,145 times
Reputation: 4674
Default Thank you for further making my point

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
If you keep reding the very next verse says he is talking about those who did not share the faith.


For we also have had the good news proclaimed to us, just as they did; but the message they heard was of no value to them, because they did not share the faith of those who obeyed
Who are those who obeyed? Are they the ones to whom the author of Hebrews writes in 6:7-8

"Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned."

The writer is warning CHRISTIANS. Believers who were looking at returning to their Judaic heritage because of earthly trials and tribulations. The writer goes on to say "God is not unjust, he will not forget your work and the love you have shown him as you have helped his people and continue to help them. We want each of you to show this same diligence TO THE VERY END, IN ORDER TO MAKE YOUR HOPE SURE.

Finn, you are resorting to what OSAS'ers always do, quoting pieces of Scripture and explaining the rest away. The Scripture must be taken as a whole. Otherwise the warnings of Jesus over and over about producing fruit come to naught. For even if you are a natural branch as were the Jews, they could be cut off. How much more could you and I who have been grafted onto the tree be taken and thrown into the fire.
 
Old 08-10-2013, 01:00 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
10,688 posts, read 7,656,145 times
Reputation: 4674
Default Thanks, Mike

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
The eternal security of the believer is one of the first things a believer needs to understand in order to be oriented to the grace of God. Without being grace oriented there can be no spiritual growth. One cannot advance spiritually when one is subject to the yoke of slavery as you are.
Galatians 5:1 It was for freedom that Christ set us free; therefore keep standing firm and do not be subject again to a yoke of slavery.
The believer who understands that he is eternally secure is free from bondage to fear and free to pursue spiritual growth. He is not compelled out of fear to work for his salvation but is free to advance spiritually with the result that he will produce works. But whether he chooses to pursue spiritual growth or not has no bearing on the reality of the believer's eternal security.

Dresden, you do not walk in the freedom for which Christ set us free. You wear a yoke of slavery. You do not work out of love for God, but out of fear of losing your salvation. But if you have never simply trusted in the finished work of Christ on the Cross for your salvation you remain under condemnation still.

You simply cannot understand that while the believer is to pick up his cross and follow Jesus, that is not the basis for receiving eternal life. Salvation is a free gift which cannot be worked for, but can only be received freely by trusting in Jesus Christ.

The eternal security of the believer is not a license to sin. The disobedient believer is disciplined in time as a son. The believer's disobedience is handled as a family matter (See Hebrews 12:5-8).

Just like the Judaizers who taught that you could not be saved unless you got circumcised (See Acts 15:1) you falsely claim that you cannot be saved unless you work for it. You are a legalist. Legalism says 'do' in order to be saved. But grace says 'done'. The work of salvation was completed at the Cross. And a person receives that salvation by grace through faith in Christ. Not by works.

You are living in fear Dresden. Not in the freedom for which Christ set us free. And in trying to work for and earn your salvation instead of simply trusting in Christ alone for eternal life, you are simply working yourself deeper and deeper into a debt which you can never repay. You owe God perfect righteousness Dresden. And you will never have it through your own efforts. That is why God credits His own perfect righteousness to anyone who simply trusts in the finished work of Christ. But you reject God's righteousness and insist on trying to impress God with your own righteousness. And that is the basis for your condemnation.
Titus 3:5 He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit.
You are once again ignoring parts of the Scripture and imputing your entire faith to just some of the words. Again and again, I have said both Faith and Works are necessary for salvation. What part of my posts have you been unable to discern? But I think God has another--it's Perseverance. Faith, Works AND Perseverance. What parts of the teaching of Perseverance would you cut out in order to be comfortable with doing nothing for God?

But since you have such great insight into my heart, clearly as much as the Lord Jesus Himself, please pray for me.

I can use the prayers, and you can use the practice.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Closed Thread


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > General Forums > Religion and Spirituality > Christianity

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top