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Old 08-10-2013, 07:04 PM
 
670 posts, read 811,114 times
Reputation: 141

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Azrael17 View Post
That's a good post even if I don't agree with 100% of it.


I would like to add a few verses to that list.

“Look, I am coming soon! My reward is with me, and I will give to each person according to what they have done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.
“Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood." - Revelation 22:12-15

Our works or lack of works determine our reward.

"For whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them." - Matthew 25:29

If we don't live a life according to Christs teachings we will not have any treasure stored up in heaven and even the promise we might have had will be taken away.

“Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" - Matthew 7:21-23

Belief in Christ is not enough to save us.

"Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments." - 1 John 2:3

"He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God." - Micah 6:8

"For I desire mercy, not sacrifice, and acknowledgment of God rather than burnt offerings." - Hosea 6:6

"Forgive them Father, they know not what they do."
I posted that but every one ignored it.
It seems when your faced with verses that disprove your point of view you just ignore them,
but when they can be twisted you twist them.




Do you honestly think God cares what you believe or don't believe?
I believe what matters is what we have done and the intent behind those actions.

"Do not be foolish, God can not be mocked, a man reaps what we sows." - Galatians 6:7

"He said:
“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
You see it calls those sorts of people blessed, it doesn't say blessed are those who believe in me, instead it list a bunch of other attributes, it doesn't say blessed are those who are peacemakers and a believer, it only says peacemakers. Now think about that. It was worded this way for a reason, so that you could not warp it with that "Once Saved always saved" nonsense.

“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell."

Jesus himself says if you get angry with each other and do not make amends then you are in danger. What does he tell us to do in order to avoid this danger? Does he tell us to believe in him? No. What does he instruct us to do, what sort of work? He tells us to make up with each other.

Did Jesus tell us we could just believe in him and not worry about doing as he instructed us? No.
In fact he told us to follow his teachings.

“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

"Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent."

What does Jesus say Christians should do when we notice other Christians sinning?
"If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a non-believer or a tax collector."

 
Old 08-10-2013, 07:49 PM
 
Location: El Paso, TX
32,928 posts, read 26,160,446 times
Reputation: 16087
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azrael17 View Post
I posted that but every one ignored it.
It seems when your faced with verses that disprove your point of view you just ignore them,
but when they can be twisted you twist them.




Do you honestly think God cares what you believe or don't believe?
I believe what matters is what we have done and the intent behind those actions.

"Do not be foolish, God can not be mocked, a man reaps what we sows." - Galatians 6:7

"He said:
“Blessed are the poor in spirit,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
Blessed are those who mourn,
for they will be comforted.
Blessed are the meek,
for they will inherit the earth.
Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
for they will be filled.
Blessed are the merciful,
for they will be shown mercy.
Blessed are the pure in heart,
for they will see God.
Blessed are the peacemakers,
for they will be called children of God.
Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,
for theirs is the kingdom of heaven."
You see it calls those sorts of people blessed, it doesn't say blessed are those who believe in me, instead it list a bunch of other attributes, it doesn't say blessed are those who are peacemakers and a believer, it only says peacemakers. Now think about that. It was worded this way for a reason, so that you could not warp it with that "Once Saved always saved" nonsense.

“You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, ‘You shall not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.’ But I tell you that anyone who is angry with a brother or sister will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to a brother or sister, ‘Raca,’ is answerable to the court. And anyone who says, ‘You fool!’ will be in danger of the fire of hell."

Jesus himself says if you get angry with each other and do not make amends then you are in danger. What does he tell us to do in order to avoid this danger? Does he tell us to believe in him? No. What does he instruct us to do, what sort of work? He tells us to make up with each other.

Did Jesus tell us we could just believe in him and not worry about doing as he instructed us? No.
In fact he told us to follow his teachings.

“Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house; yet it did not fall, because it had its foundation on the rock. But everyone who hears these words of mine and does not put them into practice is like a foolish man who built his house on sand. The rain came down, the streams rose, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell with a great crash.”

"Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent."

What does Jesus say Christians should do when we notice other Christians sinning?
"If your brother or sister sins, go and point out their fault, just between the two of you. If they listen to you, you have won them over. But if they will not listen, take one or two others along, so that ‘every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.’ If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a non-believer or a tax collector."
Learn to distinguish between the fact that eternal salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. The spiritual life of the believer after having been eternally saved demands perseverance on the part of the believer. But the perseverance required of the believer who would pick up his cross and follow Jesus has nothing to do with receiving eternal life. I have addressed this a number of times.
 
Old 08-10-2013, 09:56 PM
 
670 posts, read 811,114 times
Reputation: 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Learn to distinguish between the fact that eternal salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone. The spiritual life of the believer after having been eternally saved demands perseverance on the part of the believer. But the perseverance required of the believer who would pick up his cross and follow Jesus has nothing to do with receiving eternal life. I have addressed this a number of times.
Your very dedicated to your beliefs that quality I respect in people,
but I do not share those same exact beliefs.

You just described the doctrine you believe in.

Mine is different.
And it is this:
Jesus while he is the son of God and Messiah is not the means to our salvation, though god granted him the authority to forgive sin and the authority to allow his followers to forgive sin, this forgiveness though is a part of a Covenant a contract if you will between us and God.
In my theology we must do our best to be good, but we do not need to be perfect so long as we try our best, Christ by gods authority will forgive us, but we are not to worship Christ only God. God is most merciful to those who show mercy, most forgiving of those wiling to forgive. We are judged based on our deeds and their intent. Jesus's purpose to me was not to die on a cross but to show us the proper way to live our lives and it is by putting his teachings into practice that we achieve salvation. Thus when he said I am the way truth and life, he was not saying himself personally but the life he lived is how we must live. We must let go of our ego and learn be selfless. For as he said many times, the first will be last and the last will be first. If we do not practice what Christ taught, if instead we live selfish lives then we have broken the contract and will continue to reincarnate. Some are Sanctified and move onto heaven while others after ages of incarnated over and over become so full of sin that in their stubbornness God erases their soul from existence.

Mike,
we are two vary different kinds of Christianity.
And please don't do what others have done and try to claim I'm not a Christian,
because my king, brother, and Messiah is Jesus. I just don't believe in the trinity like you probably do and I don't worship the man.

Also I use to be Protestant Christian, a Baptists. I was Baptized once back when I believed the ritual held some importance, I use to take communion back when I thought blood was necessary for salvation, but I do not hold those ideas any more. You could lie and say I truly didn't believe back then, but you would be wrong, I believed with every fiber of my being back then that those false doctrines where true.

I am of the belief that we must be immersed in the spirit of God and walk with God, not that we need to be immersed in water, all the ritual represents to me is a public announcement that one believes and is willing to repent and that can be done with out water. I do not take communion because I do not believe in Sacrifice as a legitimate way to gain atonement.

Mike what do you believe happens to some one like me after I die? Who use to believe in blood sacrifice but now thinks it's evil?
What happens to people who actually try to do some good in this world instead of being lazy?

I pray that some day you will see how evil the "Once Saved Always Saved" doctrine is.
I pray that some day you will see how evil blood sacrifice is.
Regardless of what you believe I urge you to do good while you live.
 
Old 08-10-2013, 11:10 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
10,688 posts, read 7,656,145 times
Reputation: 4674
Default If you want numbers, you want easy believism and OSAS

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
On the contrary. A dead or non-productive faith (no works) is not a non-existent faith. What do you think of when you see the word 'dead'? That it was once alive. But James is not even talking about salvation.

And go back and read the addition to my last post which I added while you were posting this.

And I suppose that you think that every theologian who believes in the eternal security of the believer piecemeals the Scriptures and cherry picks. What about Charles Stanley for instance? He teaches eternal security. Or Robert McLaughlin, the author of the study I provided in the OP? Or Lewis Sperry Chafer (died 1952) who founded Dallas Theological Seminary? Or Dr. Robert Dean of West Houston Bible Church and Chairman of the Governing Board for Chafer Theological Seminary? Or any of a number of others I could name? Do you think that they cherry pick the Scriptures? I'm sure you do.
The gentlemen you speak of are all good men with bad theology. They, too, want to make the Christian life something that doesn't really require a change of heart. And to their credit, it's worked, if filling churches is the goal.

But the way of the Lord is narrow. Few find it. Fewer still follow it.

And just because there are others whispering sweet nothings in God's ear in hopes of keeping Him from seeing the disobedience or at best lukewarm Christianity that this type of theology has spread, makes it no less a burden on the heart of Christ.

I ask again, HOW, HOW, HOW has OSAS made for holier living among Christians. Because as I look at our nation, the churches have been filled by this delusional theology, but our people are further from God than ever.

A Christian who rises each morning knowing that He has a duty to perform, that His Lord expects him to perform it, that there is a reward when the master returns, is a servant who keeps watch as Jesus commanded. Those who are comfortable because they are parked in God's house, have frequently gone to the backroom to sleep. To you that may be honoring God. The milquetoast preaching that is designed to get people to come to the altar without ever a word concerning the need to be a faithful servant, is not just heresy, it is preaching which does not give the light of Christ---and that increases the darkness. Hence, a nation that calls itself Christian, has millions in church on Sundays, but in practice is selfish, self-centered, and unable to say to the poor and infirm, "rise up and walk."

The Christian that know God is watching him, knows that less is more. The less security, the more diligence in serving God. The less security, the more prayer to stay in tune with God. The less security, the more watchful for opportunities that would please God.

I'm no seer, but all of us have some understanding of human nature. The boss is away, and we relax and become less attentive. For those who are completely secure in their spiritual destination, I suggest there is an inordinate amount of laziness when it comes to serving God diligently, or prayerful, and more likely with a wandering eye that looks away from the prize at the end of the good fight, and instead smiles complacently at the one they think is in their laps.

But for Christians who know that there will be an accounting of their lives and a division between those who REALLY BELIEVE (Obedient Servants), and those who are DISOBEDIENT and which makes them unbeleivers, we don't dismiss Jesus' words. He means what He took time to warn us about.

I believe ALL the Scriptures, and I don't need to "explain away" the meaning to anyone. They are what they say--and I believe they were written directly with me in mind, so that I have no excuse that it was written for this group or that group, they were written to warn me, to encourage me, to make me more sensitive to what service to Jesus really means. No explanation needed about belief in Faith and Works and Perseverance all working together like the parts of the body make up the whole.
 
Old 08-10-2013, 11:39 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 6,980,955 times
Reputation: 1615
Quote:
Originally Posted by nateswift View Post
Please don't say that I am calling God a liar. It is merely vicious rhetoric for the fact that I disagree with your interpretations.
Happens a lot here. Disagree with someone's dogma and they say you hate God. Interpret the scriptures in a different way than someone, they say you are obviously calling God a liar. It gets old after a while.
 
Old 08-11-2013, 12:11 AM
 
670 posts, read 811,114 times
Reputation: 141
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
Happens a lot here. Disagree with someone's dogma and they say you hate God. Interpret the scriptures in a different way than someone, they say you are obviously calling God a liar. It gets old after a while.
Or in my case
if you don't share their exact theological beliefs they tell you your not a Christian.
 
Old 08-11-2013, 01:45 AM
 
Location: Southern Oregon
17,071 posts, read 10,832,457 times
Reputation: 1869
What is it about such doctrines that seems to make people vicious?
 
Old 08-11-2013, 06:37 AM
 
Location: Florida
76,949 posts, read 47,272,488 times
Reputation: 14761
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden View Post
The gentlemen you speak of are all good men with bad theology. They, too, want to make the Christian life something that doesn't really require a change of heart. And to their credit, it's worked, if filling churches is the goal.

But the way of the Lord is narrow. Few find it. Fewer still follow it.
They all preach the importance of works, but they do not preach your salvation can be lost if your works are not up to par. The change of heart is not something you do on your own, it is what Christ does, and it will make you want to do the works. You seem to be saying you have to change your own heart and perform "works" and do things which are not even your calling. Let God change your heart and listen to your Spirit to learn what He wants you to do. Don't just do stuff and give money because you feel you'll be punished if you don't. God is not impressed by works done with that Spirit.
 
Old 08-11-2013, 10:21 AM
 
Location: Tennessee
10,688 posts, read 7,656,145 times
Reputation: 4674
Default Healthy fear

Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
They all preach the importance of works, but they do not preach your salvation can be lost if your works are not up to par. The change of heart is not something you do on your own, it is what Christ does, and it will make you want to do the works. You seem to be saying you have to change your own heart and perform "works" and do things which are not even your calling. Let God change your heart and listen to your Spirit to learn what He wants you to do. Don't just do stuff and give money because you feel you'll be punished if you don't. God is not impressed by works done with that Spirit.
I gave more than half a dozen quotes about a healthy fear of God. I hope those will be taken to heart. But works without love are works without faith--and both faith and works are important for salvation.

Another poster mentioned Charles Stanley as a great preacher who promotes eternal security (he has written a book by that name). It's very interesting that Stanley describes "sinful" Christians as living in an outer circle of heaven where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth!!! In fact, it sounds like HELL, not Heaven. But here is a preacher much more adept at debunking Stanley's claims:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ViUtf3sIsAc

Last edited by Wardendresden; 08-11-2013 at 10:29 AM.. Reason: formatting
 
Old 08-11-2013, 10:45 AM
 
Location: Tennessee
10,688 posts, read 7,656,145 times
Reputation: 4674
Default From a relatively new Christian who has studied the Scriptures

Here is a person who describes herself as a relatively new Christian who has been bombarded by many theological viewpoints during her time as a Christian. She states early on that it is necessary for Christians to do their own study of the Word and not accept the views of others.

At about 3:15 or so in the video, she calls OSAS a lie straight from Hell. And she uses a new term that fits well with that false doctrine--"greasy grace".

She is an unprofessional speaker, unlike the video of the preacher in the last post who debunked Stanley. But what you hear is a heartfelt confession by someone who has committed their life to Jesus.



Once Saved Always Saved? - YouTube

From her own statements about this video:

Hello Beloveds,

Forgive the nature of my delivery in this video. I don't mean to sound preachy but I am just really fired up... It is more me being passionate than self-righteous ranting. Lol.

This doctrine of OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved), is VERY dangerous. It has infiltrated our churches and our faith. It is a LIE that has been mixed in with the TRUTH. It is a half truth that LEAVES OUT and DISREGARDS a HUGE part of Salvation, which is the WORKING OUT of our Faith in obedience, repentance and abiding in the Father. I completely agree with the finished work of Christ. I agree that grace is a GIFT. However, WE can misuse, abuse and DISgrace this gift! OSAS seeks to make the believer think that their salvation is secure when Yeshua constantly teaches that we will NOT enter eternal life if we DON'T keep His commands! OSAS essentially says that sin is not an issue, thereby saying that repentance is not an issue and that there is NOTHING that can cause us to lose our salvation... However, WE, by FREE WILL can reject God. WE can continue in our sins. We can TURN OUR BACKS on God. It is OUR CHOICE.

There is SO much more to say on the topic, but I could not fit it all into this video.

Brother and Sisters... we must be vigilant. There is SO MUCH DECEPTION OUT THERE. We must continue to search for TRUTH. ALL TRUTH, not just half truths...
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