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It really depends on how you believe one is saved. If it's just saying a quick prayer, then boom...you're done and you go on with the same old life....well, we know that your "conversion" wasn't real.
If, however, we realize that God is the one doing the saving and converting....then we realize that what he starts, he will finish.
Good point .
God made a man without his help and can't save him, without the mans help.
To show the falsity of your claim that these 'are good men with bad theology who want to make the Christian life something that doesn't really require a change of heart', a charge which you levy against those who believe in the eternal security of the believer, I will quote something that Pastor/Dr. Robert Dean said just a couple days ago on August 11, 2013. Because of internet connectivity problems I couldn't listen to this class until last night.
This is from his class on Proverbs. In this segment of the class (about 16-17 minutes into the class) he refers to what James said in James 3:9-10. He says...
''James says our tongue really reflects what's coming out of our soul. If we're walking by the Holy Spirit then what comes out of our mouth reflects the fact that we are walking by the Spirit. That we are walking in fellowship. That with it we bless God. But we can sin and instantly we are out of fellowship, and the next second we are cursing someone. Some driver on the highway. Somebody who just cut us off. Somebody on customer service that we are dealing with. We can instantly be out of fellowship and the tongue has shifted gears and is producing a lot of vile.
James goes on to say that ''out of the same mouth proceeds both blessing and cursing, my brethren, these things ought not to be so.'' In other words, this is not how we are to conduct ourselves as believers. There's a protocol for living the Christian life. There's a code of ethics, standards for the believer's life. This is not legalism.
I find that a lot of people have trouble with legalism. Somewhere along the line people sometimes get the idea that grace means since Jesus died on the cross for our sins, and since all we need to do is confess our sin to be forgiven, then we really don't have to try to exercise any level of self control. All we really have to do is to make sure we confess our sins, and we show up for Bible class and somehow the Holy Spirit is just going to make it happen. We don't have to engage our volition. We just get in fellowship and the Holy Spirit is going to do it for us.
That's just completely wrong. The Holy Spirit doesn't take over our volition. He may strengthen it, He may remind us of what we need to be doing, but we need to make those tough decisions, that when we really want to do 'X', Scripture says we need to manifest our family heritage as royal family of God. We need to do 'Y'. We need to say, I'm not going to do 'X' because we need to say 'No' to our sin nature.
And I find a lot of Christian say, Oh, that's legalism. No. Legalism is saying that somehow my relationship to God, my reception of grace blessings is based upon what I do. It's by works and not by faith. No, it's by grace through faith, but we still have to do what Christ says to do, but that's not the basis of God's love and blessing for us. So we ought not to live and use our mouth like any unbeliever does.''
2013-Proverbs-027b <<<---Click on this for the audio.
Watch Your Mouth! Proverbs 18:20-21; James 1:26, 3:8-11. August 11, 2013.
Don't be a motor mouth! Our tongues are barometers of our thinking so don't say the first thing that pops into your mind. Listen to this lesson to learn how our words have a tremendous impact on others and on ourselves. See what it means to criticize and judge and why our words can be like a boomerang coming back to destroy us. Understand that the most important words we can say are ones that showcase God's love. See how to avoid being a gossip, a talebearer, or badmouthing others as we respect people's privacy.
Now here is a pastor who believes in the eternal security of the believer who also says that the believer is responsible to conduct himself according to the protocol and standards of the Christian life.
The exact opposite of what you accused him of by association with those who believe in the believer's eternal security. How quick people are to judge others without even knowing them. Or what they have said, or what they have taught.
Mike, I called them "good" men. You apparently misunderstand the word "good" both in the scripture and in life itself!!! I did say they have bad theology. Quite different from calling them "bad" people which is a judgment.
Your theology, which matches theirs, has had bad consequences as shown in video posted in #195 of this thread. I don't call YOU bad, but not only is your theology bad, it has resulted in being justification for horrible crimes against God AND man, and for which you have no explanation---at least not an explanation that would be comforting to the families of those slain or injured by mass murderer George Sodini, who wrote the day before his awful crime:
"Maybe soon I will see Jesus and God. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did we would all be in hell. Christ paid for EVERY sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the penalty was ALREADY paid. People judge, but that does not matter."
(all language and the capitalization is from George Sodini's blog)
He killed three and injured nine others at an L.A. Fitness Center in Pittsburgh. He planned it, he executed it with full assurance that he was saved and going to heaven. So your theology might teach that Sodini was bad, but that he was still saved, and possibly will be sharing heaven with his victims, even though the scripture states that no murderer will enter heaven.
And that's why I call it "bad" theology. Good theology should result in good works, in people who follow in the steps of Jesus, in people who are repentant daily for any sin committed, who seek how to serve Christ more closely. It doesn't result in murder.
Last edited by Wardendresden; 08-14-2013 at 02:36 PM..
It really depends on how you believe one is saved. If it's just saying a quick prayer, then boom...you're done and you go on with the same old life....well, we know that your "conversion" wasn't real.
If, however, we realize that God is the one doing the saving and converting....then we realize that what he starts, he will finish.
And, Vizio, that remains the single greatest problem for one time decisionalists and OSAS. Churches are filled with those who have made a profession of faith but bear no fruit with their lives. And it's why as important as faith is, and it is very, very important, works are EQUALLY important to show a changed heart.
Methinks that many who defend the doctrine of OSAS do so because they want Jesus, they just don't want the cross and servanthood that goes with such a commitment.
And, Vizio, that remains the single greatest problem for one time decisionalists and OSAS. Churches are filled with those who have made a profession of faith but bear no fruit with their lives. And it's why as important as faith is, and it is very, very important, works are EQUALLY important to show a changed heart.
Methinks that many who defend the doctrine of OSAS do so because they want Jesus, they just don't want the cross and servanthood that goes with such a commitment.
So then really, it's not necessarily an issue of OSAS...but whether or not one was actually saved.
To show the falsity of your claim that these 'are good men with bad theology who want to make the Christian life something that doesn't really require a change of heart', a charge which you levy against those who believe in the eternal security of the believer, I will quote something that Pastor/Dr. Robert Dean said just a couple days ago on August 11, 2013. Because of internet connectivity problems I couldn't listen to this class until last night.
This is from his class on Proverbs. In this segment of the class (about 16-17 minutes into the class) he refers to what James said in James 3:9-10. He says...
''James says our tongue really reflects what's coming out of our soul. If we're walking by the Holy Spirit then what comes out of our mouth reflects the fact that we are walking by the Spirit. That we are walking in fellowship. That with it we bless God. But we can sin and instantly we are out of fellowship, and the next second we are cursing someone. Some driver on the highway. Somebody who just cut us off. Somebody on customer service that we are dealing with. We can instantly be out of fellowship and the tongue has shifted gears and is producing a lot of vile.
James goes on to say that ''out of the same mouth proceeds both blessing and cursing, my brethren, these things ought not to be so.'' In other words, this is not how we are to conduct ourselves as believers. There's a protocol for living the Christian life. There's a code of ethics, standards for the believer's life. This is not legalism.
I find that a lot of people have trouble with legalism. Somewhere along the line people sometimes get the idea that grace means since Jesus died on the cross for our sins, and since all we need to do is confess our sin to be forgiven, then we really don't have to try to exercise any level of self control. All we really have to do is to make sure we confess our sins, and we show up for Bible class and somehow the Holy Spirit is just going to make it happen. We don't have to engage our volition. We just get in fellowship and the Holy Spirit is going to do it for us.
That's just completely wrong. The Holy Spirit doesn't take over our volition. He may strengthen it, He may remind us of what we need to be doing, but we need to make those tough decisions, that when we really want to do 'X', Scripture says we need to manifest our family heritage as royal family of God. We need to do 'Y'. We need to say, I'm not going to do 'X' because we need to say 'No' to our sin nature.
And I find a lot of Christian say, Oh, that's legalism. No. Legalism is saying that somehow my relationship to God, my reception of grace blessings is based upon what I do. It's by works and not by faith. No, it's by grace through faith, but we still have to do what Christ says to do, but that's not the basis of God's love and blessing for us. So we ought not to live and use our mouth like any unbeliever does.''
2013-Proverbs-027b <<<---Click on this for the audio.
Watch Your Mouth! Proverbs 18:20-21; James 1:26, 3:8-11. August 11, 2013.
Don't be a motor mouth! Our tongues are barometers of our thinking so don't say the first thing that pops into your mind. Listen to this lesson to learn how our words have a tremendous impact on others and on ourselves. See what it means to criticize and judge and why our words can be like a boomerang coming back to destroy us. Understand that the most important words we can say are ones that showcase God's love. See how to avoid being a gossip, a talebearer, or badmouthing others as we respect people's privacy.
Now here is a pastor who believes in the eternal security of the believer who also says that the believer is responsible to conduct himself according to the protocol and standards of the Christian life.
The exact opposite of what you accused him of by association with those who believe in the believer's eternal security. How quick people are to judge others without even knowing them. Or what they have said, or what they have taught.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
Mike, I called them "good" men. You apparently misunderstand the word "good" both in the scripture and in life itself!!! I did say they have bad theology. Quite different from calling them "bad" people which is a judgment.
Your theology, which matches theirs, has had bad consequences as shown in video posted in #195 of this thread. I don't call YOU bad, but not only is your theology bad, it has resulted in being justification for horrible crimes against God AND man, and for which you have no explanation---at least not an explanation that would be comforting to the families of those slain or injured by mass murderer George Sodini, who wrote the day before his awful crime:
"Maybe soon I will see Jesus and God. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did we would all be in hell. Christ paid for EVERY sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the penalty was ALREADY paid. People judge, but that does not matter."
(all language and the capitalization is from George Sodini's blog)
He killed three and injured nine others at an L.A. Fitness Center in Pittsburgh. He planned it, he executed it with full assurance that he was saved and going to heaven. So your theology might teach that Sodini was bad, but that he was still saved, and possibly will be sharing heaven with his victims, even though the scripture states that no murderer will enter heaven.
And that's why I call it "bad" theology. Good theology should result in good works, in people who follow in the steps of Jesus, in people who are repentant daily for any sin committed, who seek how to serve Christ more closely. It doesn't result in murder.
You called them ''good men with bad theology who want to make the Christian life something that doesn't really require a change of heart''. And having been shown to be wrong about what they 'want', you are unwilling to admit that you are wrong.
And again, you judge a teaching of the Bible based on those who would misuse that teaching as a license to sin. The Bible says what it says, and the misuse of what it says by some does not invalidate the teaching.
You called them ''good men with bad theology who want to make the Christian life something that doesn't really require a change of heart''. And having been shown to be wrong about what they 'want', you are unwilling to admit that you are wrong.
And again, you judge a teaching of the Bible based on those who would misuse that teaching as a license to sin. The Bible says what it says, and the misuse of what it says by some does not invalidate the teaching.
Your arguments continually attempt to make this a thread about me, rather than about your misguided theology.
Do you believe the words George Sodini wrote the day before he committed mass murder? From your other statements on this thread, it appears that you do. Do you wish to retract those? Or do you stand by a theology which has been misinterpreted on at least three occasions according to the video in post #195, so that people did evil things.
The God you worship teaches a theology that people can use to justify sinful actions?
Please show me where my theology of faith, works, and perseverance has resulted in horrendous crimes against man and God. Even Vizio, who holds to much of your same theology, knows that a change of heart and life is a necessary ingredient for true faith.
Your arguments continually attempt to make this a thread about me, rather than about your misguided theology.
Do you believe the words George Sodini wrote the day before he committed mass murder? From your other statements on this thread, it appears that you do. Do you wish to retract those? Or do you stand by a theology which has been misinterpreted on at least three occasions according to the video in post #195, so that people did evil things.
The God you worship teaches a theology that people can use to justify sinful actions?
Please show me where my theology of faith, works, and perseverance has resulted in horrendous crimes against man and God. Even Vizio, who holds to much of your same theology, knows that a change of heart and life is a necessary ingredient for true faith.
No, Dresden. The point of this thread, and the teaching of the Word of God is that salvation is by grace through faith, and not by works. Not by trying to be good. Not by adding anything to faith. It is your legalism which is not only misguided, but is an attack on the grace of God.
But I am addressing a judgmental comment you made about the intent of theologians who believe in the eternal security of the believer, and have shown you to be wrong. And you have thus far chosen not to admit that you are wrong.
And again, you cannot say that a teaching of the Word of God, in this case, the eternal security of the believer, is invalid, or bad theology simply because of the misuse of that teaching by some people.
According to you, this is what George Sodini wrote in his blog. I haven't read his blog, but I will assume that he wrote it.
"Maybe soon I will see Jesus and God. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did we would all be in hell. Christ paid for EVERY sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the penalty was ALREADY paid. People judge, but that does not matter."
(all language and the capitalization is from George Sodini's blog)
He killed three and injured nine others at an L.A. Fitness Center in Pittsburgh. He planned it, he executed it with full assurance that he was saved and going to heaven. So your theology might teach that Sodini was bad, but that he was still saved, and possibly will be sharing heaven with his victims, even though the scripture states that no murderer will enter heaven.
Sodini is correct. Eternal life does not depend on works. Both Jesus Christ and the apostle Paul said that eternal life does not depend on works, and I have previously shown you the Scripture which verifies that statement.
Both Moses and king David committed murder as believer's. They are in heaven. If George Sodini believed that Jesus died for his sins with the result that he placed his faith in Christ for eternal life then he will go to heaven no matter how much that offends the legalist.
When the Bible states that those who commit this sin or that sin will not inherit the kingdom of God, it is referring to the issue of losing eternal rewards. Not losing eternal salvation. In the case of Revelation 22:15, the reference is to unbelievers.
The believer is fully capable of sinning just as much as any unbeliever. And while believers can be the best people in the world, they can also be the worst people in the world. Unbelievers fall somewhere in between.
And no, sin is never justified. That does not however prevent people from sinning. But sin also does not keep the believer out of heaven.
Last edited by Michael Way; 08-14-2013 at 04:10 PM..
No, Dresden. The point of this thread, and the teaching of the Word of God is that salvation is by grace through faith, and not by works. Not by trying to be good. Not by adding anything to faith. It is your legalism which is not only misguided, but is an attack on the grace of God.
But I am addressing a judgmental comment you made about the intent of theologians who believe in the eternal security of the believer, and have shown you to be wrong. And you have thus far chosen not to admit that you are wrong.
And again, you cannot say that a teaching of the Word of God, in this case, the eternal security of the believer, is invalid, or bad theology simply because of the misuse of that teaching by some people.
According to you, this is what George Sodini wrote in his blog. I haven't read his blog, but I will assume that he wrote it.
"Maybe soon I will see Jesus and God. At least that is what I was told. Eternal life does NOT depend on works. If it did we would all be in hell. Christ paid for EVERY sin, so how can I or you be judged BY GOD for a sin when the penalty was ALREADY paid. People judge, but that does not matter."
(all language and the capitalization is from George Sodini's blog)
He killed three and injured nine others at an L.A. Fitness Center in Pittsburgh. He planned it, he executed it with full assurance that he was saved and going to heaven. So your theology might teach that Sodini was bad, but that he was still saved, and possibly will be sharing heaven with his victims, even though the scripture states that no murderer will enter heaven.
Sodini is correct. Eternal life does not depend on works. Both Jesus Christ and the apostle Paul said that eternal life does not depend on works, and I have previously shown you the Scripture which verifies that statement.
Both Moses and king David committed murder as believer's. They are in heaven. If George Sodini believed that Jesus died for his sins with the result that he placed his faith in Christ for eternal life then he will go to heaven no matter how much that offends the legalist.
When the Bible states that those who commit this sin or that sin will not inherit the kingdom of God, it is referring to the issue of losing eternal rewards. Not losing eternal salvation. In the case of Revelation 22:15, the reference is to unbelievers.
The believer is fully capable of sinning just as much as any unbeliever. And while believers can be the best people in the world, they can also be the worst people in the world. Unbelievers fall somewhere in between.
And no, sin is never justified. That does not however prevent people from sinning. But sin also does not keep the believer out of heaven.
To say King David did not lose his salvation because of his sins of adultery and murder is to rebut Scripture (I Cor 6:9-10 and Rev 21:8 to cite only two). Just because David prayed to have the joy of his salvation restored doesn't mean he didn't previously lose his salvation, which if the aforementioned verses are true, he did. The context of Psalm 51 is AFTER II Sam 12:13 where he was declared forgiven. So after he was forgiven he wrote Psalm 51 asking that the joy of his salvation be restored. Context means much.
Please note, too, that King David certainly believed the Holy Spirit could be taken from him Psa 51:11, which is the very thing that happened to King Saul (I Sam 16:14). Apparently from verse 11 alone he was quite afraid of the consequences of his sin.
Moses killed the Egyptian prior to having received the knowledge of truth on Mt. Sinai, so his faith and forgiveness came after his sin.
You make statements about me and attribute incorrect assumptions to me, because you are choosing what politicians do when they are losing an argument---they attack the speaker rather than pursue the issue.
The issue begun by you on this thread, is about the efficacy of OSAS. It is a theology for those who wish to call on His Name, but remain disobedient in their lives and in the practice of their faith. Is that true of EVERYONE that believes this false doctrine? Of course not. But it puts them in league with those who do believe so.
The theology I proclaim on this thread, unlike your own, has lead to no intentional sins because of a one time past decision. The verses you quote, you do so out of context from all the other scripture that show again and again that those who have been saved live faithful lives. Your theology can be traced back no further than Calvin, if that far, and popularized no more than a couple of hundred years ago, thereby not standing the test of time, the test of the scriptural record, nor the test of practice by the earliest Christians.
In short, a failed theology resulting in justification for horrific crimes against God and man, and an escape mechanism for those who do not wish to take up their cross daily to follow our Lord.
Scripture must be viewed in its totality in order to understand the spiritual truths within it.
You are welcome to continue your personal attacks. I will stay true to pointing out the falseness of the doctrine you are proclaiming, so that it will not mislead and misinform those who wish to have a true fellowship with Christ.
To say King David did not lose his salvation because of his sins of adultery and murder is to rebut Scripture (I Cor 6:9-10 and Rev 21:8 to cite only two). Just because David prayed to have the joy of his salvation restored doesn't mean he didn't previously lose his salvation, which if the aforementioned verses are true, he did. The context of Psalm 51 is AFTER II Sam 12:13 where he was declared forgiven. So after he was forgiven he wrote Psalm 51 asking that the joy of his salvation be restored. Context means much.
No, David did not lose his salvation. Despite his sins God called David a man after His own heart.
Acts 13:22 ''After He had removed him, He raised up David to be their king, concerning whom He also testified and said, 'I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after my heart, who will do all My will.'
1 Samuel 13:14 But now your kingdom will not endure; the LORD has sought out a man after his own heart and appointed him ruler of his people, because you have not kept the LORD's command."
As for 1 Corinthians 6:9-10, I told you that references to inheriting the kingdom have to do with eternal rewards. Not eternal salvation.
Revelation 21:8 is talking about unbelievers, not believers. There is however another view that regards Revelation 21:8 as referring to the believer's inheritance - his 'part' - his meros - his portion or share of the inheritance as being burned up in the lake of fire, while the believer himself is saved as though through fire as per 1 Corinthians 3:15.
At any rate, these passages do not teach that a believer can lose his salvation.
Those of you who think that a believer's salvation can be lost are faced with the fact that if Hebrews 6:4-6 says that salvation can be lost then it is also saying that once salvation has been lost a person cannot be saved again. ''and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance...'' And there are actually people who believe that once salvation has been lost you cannot be saved again. But Hebrews 6:4-6 is not teaching that salvation can be lost. I have explained that passage previously on this thread.
Quote:
Please note, too, that King David certainly believed the Holy Spirit could be taken from him Psa 51:11, which is the very thing that happened to King Saul (I Sam 16:14). Apparently from verse 11 alone he was quite afraid of the consequences of his sin.
Of course the Holy Spirit could be taken away from a person during the age of Israel. No believer had the indwelling of the Holy Spirit prior to the dispensation of the Church. There were a few people who had the enduement of the Spirit for the purpose of accomplishing certain tasks. But that enduement could be removed due to sin, or when the task was accomplished. The removal of the Holy Spirit's ministry of enduement had nothing to do with a persons salvation. And again, most people did not have the enduement of the Spirit.
Quote:
Moses killed the Egyptian prior to having received the knowledge of truth on Mt. Sinai, so his faith and forgiveness came after his sin.
Moses was a believer before he had to flee Egypt due to murdering the Egyptian. But he was not a mature believer at that point.
Quote:
You make statements about me and attribute incorrect assumptions to me, because you are choosing what politicians do when they are losing an argument---they attack the speaker rather than pursue the issue.
No, I am addressing statements you have made which are legalistic in nature and which are an attack on the principle of grace. You never had a valid argument in the first place.Scripture refutes the legalism you espouse.
You claim that salvation is through a combination of faith plus works. That claim is refuted by Jesus Himself, as well as by Paul. Scripture has been shown on this thread which speaks to this.
I have also called you on a judgmental statement you made regarding theologians who believe in eternal security. And having been shown to be wrong you chose not to admit your error.
It is ludicrous that you are accusing me of attacking the speaker instead of the issue when I have explained the issue of salvation by grace though faith in depth, while you have attempted to base your argument largely on the motives of those who believe in the eternal security of the believer. Your assertion for example that pastors who believe in eternal security ''want to make the Christian life something that doesn't really require a change of heart.''
You have made statements about how those who believe in eternal security are spiritually lazy, and things such as that.
Quote:
The issue begun by you on this thread, is about the efficacy of OSAS. It is a theology for those who wish to call on His Name, but remain disobedient in their lives and in the practice of their faith. Is that true of EVERYONE that believes this false doctrine? Of course not. But it puts them in league with those who do believe so.
And here again, as I just stated above, you accuse those who believe in the eternal security of the believer of wanting to be disobedient in their lives and in the practice of their faith.
You cannot base an argument on whether the Bible teaches something or not based on the potential for misuse of that teaching by certain people.
Quote:
The theology I proclaim on this thread, unlike your own, has lead to no intentional sins because of a one time past decision. The verses you quote, you do so out of context from all the other scripture that show again and again that those who have been saved live faithful lives. Your theology can be traced back no further than Calvin, if that far, and popularized no more than a couple of hundred years ago, thereby not standing the test of time, the test of the scriptural record, nor the test of practice by the earliest Christians.
No Dresden. I have taken no verses out of context, nor have I cherry-picked any verses as another poster claimed.
''My theology? You mean the 'theology' that says 'For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works that no man may boast. (Ephesians 2:8-9). Is that the theology that you are claiming goes no further back than Calvin???
Or how about the 'theology' that says '' therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus'' (Romans 8:1) Perhaps that is what you are claiming goes no further back then Calvin???
Quote:
In short, a failed theology resulting in justification for horrific crimes against God and man, and an escape mechanism for those who do not wish to take up their cross daily to follow our Lord.
No, salvation by grace through faith is not a failed theology which justifies horrific crimes against God or man. That is a ridiculous statement.
Quote:
Scripture must be viewed in its totality in order to understand the spiritual truths within it.
You do not view Scripture in its totality. Nor do you understand much by way of spiritual truths. As a legalist you attack and reject the very basic principle of grace.
Quote:
You are welcome to continue your personal attacks. I will stay true to pointing out the falseness of the doctrine you are proclaiming, so that it will not mislead and misinform those who wish to have a true fellowship with Christ.
I have made no personal attacks. I have pointed out the error of legalism.
Last edited by Michael Way; 08-14-2013 at 07:07 PM..
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Is this thread about me?
