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Mystic and I are not in agreement over some important issues. The difference is he expresses the will of God in most of his writing. You express modernistic dogma that you have been taught, nothing you have learned on your own. That's why you are simply incapable of answering the question that I will continue to ask--why does a holy God allow evil to come from what you call His divine doctrine?
I do have grace, and it is God's grace, not my own. And it is big enough to reveal to me my need to be His servant and to likewise teach all who would make a claim to accept Jesus that they would first "count the cost" to see if they could finish the building--another parable that you must explain away.
But I will not halt standing in opposition to a faith that says "come and get saved and sit on your pew until you die--heaven is assured." Every person has the free will to make a choice, but I, and others, want to be sure they get an informed choice. There is no two ways about it, your view will win the numbers because it doesn't call for any commitment of life. I'm just looking for the one or two that may be touched by the spirit to walk the narrow path.
The word believe in the scripture is in the active tense. It does not apply to a one-time decision, except for those who have no intention of living actively in the present.
A doctrine that results in justification for evil is not a doctrine of God. A house divided against itself cannot stand.
And actually, you are universalist with a twist--just say the sinner's prayer.
Since I have quoted the statements of the apostle Paul who refutes you, and who you claim contradicts Jesus in much of his writings, you are claiming that Paul wrote modernistic dogma.
Why don't you just ask why a holy God allows evil at all? Evil does not come from a Biblically taught truth. Both sin and evil come from human volition. It is foolish to claim that just because some people misuse the grace of God as a license to sin that therefore eternal security must be a false doctrine.
You have stated that you don't believe the apostle Paul. That is because he teaches salvation by grace which legalists such as yourself cannot stand.
And you continue to totally ignore the fact that I have repeatedly said that the believer is to pick up his cross and follow Jesus. But that is not the basis for his salvation.
No, I am not a Universalist. Both Universalists and legalists such as yourself corrupt the gospel message.
You have made God out to be a liar. By claiming that works must be added to faith for eternal life you are saying that the work of Christ was not sufficient. You have corrupted the gospel message and played right into the hands of Satan. You have impugned the Cross. And Paul warned against the legalism you attempt to lure people into.
Salvation is by grace through faith, and not by works. And you can't stand that. Legalism is always opposed to grace. You may cause some people to believe that they must work for their salvation, thereby causing them to miss out on being saved. And you will answer to God for it.
Does Jesus say that line in any other Gospel besides John? In those exact words?
In fact are any of the most famous lines in the Gospel of John to be found in any of the other Gospels?
If the answer is a resounding, NO? Then I ask you why?
But to me it is Obvious that this Gospel came last and was a forgery with the beliefs of the author imposed into the scripture. It is for this reason and others that I reject the Gospel of John and it is not in my biblical cannon. I do not have to recognize the Biblical Cannon you and others report to, I have organized my own and it excludes Romans as well now that you have all enlightened me to it's message.
The Spirit of the Lord lead me to these conclusions and I vehemently stick by them with do vigilance.
I reject the archaic proposition that God was so weak and so human as to be vengeful or weak enough to require blood for repentance. God is a merciful and just judge, who is bountiful in love, slow to anger, but will easily forgive those who repent.
I walk the Narrow Way to Life,
few there are who submit to Gods will,
Fewer still are those who stick to the path,
but God is merciful and will allow us several chances to reincarnate.
You reject the apostle Paul.
You reject the apostle John.
You have created your own canon.
You deny the importance of the Scriptures.
You deny that Jesus is God and refuse to worship Him.
You reject salvation by grace and prefer to work for eternal life.
You deny the substitutionary death of Christ on the Cross.
All the earmarks of a false teacher.
The woods are full of false teachers.
Last edited by Michael Way; 08-17-2013 at 11:08 PM..
You reject the apostle Paul.
You reject the apostle John.
You have created your own canon.
You deny the importance of the Scriptures.
You deny that Jesus is God and refuse to worship Him.
You reject salvation by grace and prefer to work for eternal life.
You deny the substitutionary death of Christ on the Cross.
All the earmarks of a false teacher.
The woods are full of false teachers.
I don't commit Bible Idolatry or Christ Idolatry because those are sins. Only God deserves my praise.
I don't make for myself a false God of the Bible or Christ because those are sins.
Jesus is my King, Messiah, and Brother but he is not my God. Jesus is a man. God is not a man that he should lie nor the son of man that he should change his mind.
I will not be blinded by the devil's light or stricken with awe and burnt up like a moth drawn to a flame, rather I shall keep to Gods shadow in which I wade at least from here I can be a lighthouse for the people walking in darkness. Jesus and his Father are with me and guiding me.
I reject the Gospel of John not the Apostle, like I said the Gospel is a forgery in my opinion.
In what way do I reject Paul?
Instead of answering my questions or engaging in a meaningful debate, you resort to attacking my beliefs and being judgmental.
Since I have quoted the statements of the apostle Paul who refutes you, and who you claim contradicts Jesus in much of his writings, you are claiming that Paul wrote modernistic dogma.
Why don't you just ask why a holy God allows evil at all? Evil does not come from a Biblically taught truth. Both sin and evil come from human volition. It is foolish to claim that just because some people misuse the grace of God as a license to sin that therefore eternal security must be a false doctrine.
You have stated that you don't believe the apostle Paul. That is because he teaches salvation by grace which legalists such as yourself cannot stand.
And you continue to totally ignore the fact that I have repeatedly said that the believer is to pick up his cross and follow Jesus. But that is not the basis for his salvation.
No, I am not a Universalist. Both Universalists and legalists such as yourself corrupt the gospel message.
You have made God out to be a liar. By claiming that works must be added to faith for eternal life you are saying that the work of Christ was not sufficient. You have corrupted the gospel message and played right into the hands of Satan. You have impugned the Cross. And Paul warned against the legalism you attempt to lure people into.
Salvation is by grace through faith, and not by works. And you can't stand that. Legalism is always opposed to grace. You may cause some people to believe that they must work for their salvation, thereby causing them to miss out on being saved. And you will answer to God for it.
As I've stated many times, don't tell me you are saved, show me you are saved. Salvation if the grace of God and is demonstrated in the life of a true believer. Your doctrine says there is no demonstration of a changed life. Then how is anyone looking at someone who claims to be a Christian to know if they are saved. That "saved" person does the same things, says the same things, lives the same way, but Jesus came into their life?
Jesus said there would be fruit from those that follow Him. Without fruit they would be cast into the fire. I haven't made God out to be a liar, you've failed to see how big He really is. He wants to make a DIFFERENCE in your life, not just in your thinking.
As quoted on the other thread, Matthew 15:7 "Hypocrites, well did Esaiah prophesy of you, saying, 'This people draw nigh to me with their mouth, and honour me with their lips; but their hearts are far from me."
If you confess Christ with your lips you have drawn nigh to God with your mouth. But how is anyone to know that you are a Christian if you don't live like Him, like He commanded? And the Jesus who called those religious people "hypocrites" is so shallow that He would bless a one time confession of Him that never shows evidence of change---and some who actually do evil while murdering people?
The picture of that mass murderer in the LA Fitness Center in Pittsburgh (post 195), gives new and ugly meaning to the phrase "Praise the Lord, and Pass the Ammunition."
Right doctrine leads to right living. It's not a case of "well, it might lead to right living, and it might not, but glory to God your in our camp now!"
You will know them by their fruits--
Matthew 7:16
By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
Matthew 12:33
"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.
Luke 6:44
Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers.
James 3:12
My brothers and sisters, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.
I'm seeing too many "grapes" on thornbushes, and bad fruit from good trees from the OSAS doctrine. All sorts of people are making "decisions" for Jesus every Sunday morning. Why are you unable to recognize them by their fruit? Jesus said you can. If you are really, truly a Christian you, and I mean YOU, Mike, can recognize them by their fruits. But your judgment for them, unlike that of Jesus, is that they are simply backslidden, unfruitful Christians.
Matthew 7:19
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Is there going to be a fire in heaven for those unfruitful Christians?
Mystic and I are not in agreement over some important issues. The difference is he expresses the will of God in most of his writing.
Anyone who rejects the Trinity rejects the true God ...
Anyone who has contempt for the Bible and those whom God inspired to have his word written isn'tt doing the will of God.
Anyone who trusts in mysticism ... trusts not the true God
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wardendresden
A doctrine that results in justification for evil is not a doctrine of God. A house divided against itself cannot stand..
Correct ... A house divided against itself cannot stand.. look who is standing with you commending you and wanting to rep you.
How much would you want to bet that the only persistent opposition certain amigo's do virtually everyday are against certain posters only in this forum .... want to know why?
A doctrine that results in evil is not a doctrine of God.
Mark 3:25 If a house is divided against itself, thathouse cannot stand.
Mark 3:26 And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand;
Anyone who rejects the Trinity rejects the true God ... is a doctrine that results in evil is not a doctrine of God.
Anyone who rejects Jesus as God ... believes a doctrine that results in evil is not a doctrine of God.
Anyone who claims we're responsible for out justification ... believes a doctrine that results in evil is not a doctrine of God.
Anyone who rejects Christ crucified for the payment of sin ... believes a doctrine that results in evil is not a doctrine of God.
Anyone who despises the Bible \ those whom God inspired to write it, mock the fact that God isn't powerful enough to insure it's perseverance ... believes in Satanical lies which is basis for doctrines that results in evil is not a doctrine of God.
Anyone who rejects the Trinity rejects the true God ...
Anyone who has contempt for the Bible and those whom God inspired to have his word written isn'tt doing the will of God.
Anyone who trusts in mysticism ... trusts not the true God
Correct ... A house divided against itself cannot stand.. look who is standing with you commending you and wanting to rep you.
How much would you want to bet that the only persistent opposition certain amigo's do virtually everyday are against certain posters only in this forum .... want to know why?
A doctrine that results in evil is not a doctrine of God.
Mark 3:25 If a house is divided against itself, thathouse cannot stand.
Mark 3:26 And if Satan opposes himself and is divided, he cannot stand;
Anyone who rejects the Trinity rejects the true God ... is a doctrine that results in evil is not a doctrine of God.
Anyone who rejects Jesus as God ... believes a doctrine that results in evil is not a doctrine of God.
Anyone who claims we're responsible for out justification ... believes a doctrine that results in evil is not a doctrine of God.
Anyone who rejects Christ crucified for the payment of sin ... believes a doctrine that results in evil is not a doctrine of God.
Anyone who despises the Bible \ those whom God inspired to write it, mock the fact that God isn't powerful enough to insure it's perseverance ... believes in Satanical lies which is basis for doctrines that results in evil is not a doctrine of God.
Any one who worships Jesus is committing a sin and is not of God.
Any one who believes in the Trinity is committing a sin and is not of God.
Any one who believes in blood sacrifice is committing a sin and is not of God.
Any one who believes in Eternal Security and Easy Believism/Free Grace is committing a sin and are not of God.
Those are all on the broad way of Destruction into which many enter and will perish for continuing in their sin instead of doing good works and repenting with a willful intent to change for the better.
The Narrow Way of Life is following Jesus's teachings and trying our best to do good, we must submit our will to God in order to be saved.
Love is the greatest work, from it come all others and it is Love that we must chose to do in order to be saved.
Part of the idea in good works is sanctifying the work to God. As long as its not a deceitful job people for centuries have found peace in sanctifying very mundane jobs that need to be done to God. Its part and parcel of the idea in reparation. Reparation is in the sharing with God the effect of the offence in the ungrateful in the world. So making amends .
So Christians often do prayer or good works and offer them up or sanctify the effort in reparation of the sins of the ungrateful, so that God is more able in his kind mercy to be in the conversion business and can be more involved in mankind. Its said for example that the only way change for the good can happen is through grace from God, his presence. So the good works is a blend of compassion for the neighbor and in a unity with God in the nature of the all loving and idea in every individuals becoming their intended , rather then the simulation or shadow of what they can be, without the persevering and all that, if thats the situation and many things are relative...patience is key.
By and large most of these things can have soft landings in recognizing that all in, all that can be communicated with very passionate idea's is a limited 2 or 3 part idea because the listener is set and cannot have the patience for anything requiring
attention or following a line of reasoning...many things are relative and they will work around ironing things out to suite taste or find the end goal, reasoning is what it is and a journey...many things are relative.
Christianity is very simple and one of the reasons the system is so easy to follow. The whole idea in the belief, God made man and saves man in an act of sacrifice is a mystery in light of the romance to such an extent. So then ideas of Trinity and Divinity and The Virgin birth get questioned, the problem sometimes with that is in putting limitations for no reason of evidence on what would be God. So these things I think are more heavy to carry around because they try to make god more human instead of a god, which results in less god and more tailored to a person insofar as potential. The thread theme as a 'push I don't think is wise because of the two directives, The Our Father and the becoming in innocence. If the Lords prayer can't be said in good conscience it won't work and people deep down would know that.. So as a broad sweeping theme as a religion its a bit of a manipulated effort if a theme, whether its true or not it doesn't really fit too smoothly with things.It can be argued but then attention is required and thats out. Agreed priorities would need to be set firstly. Rules and boundaries help man figure things out. ( auto save-in so far as a broad sweeping theme for truth focus and inspiration) In edit still thinking....for some reason I thought yesterday was Sunday having Fri off... I read once that God can give us everything all at once in prayer, thinking I think the will can be a chore to carry around and can have some time off and the soul somewhat finds itself.. So its all very simple from my understandings.
Last edited by macpherson; 08-18-2013 at 09:05 AM..
Azrael, you have adopted the second side of the coin while rejecting the first
Quote:
Originally Posted by Azrael17
Any one who worships Jesus is committing a sin and is not of God.
Any one who believes in the Trinity is committing a sin and is not of God.
Any one who believes in blood sacrifice is committing a sin and is not of God.
Any one who believes in Eternal Security and Easy Believism/Free Grace is committing a sin and are not of God.
Those are all on the broad way of Destruction into which many enter and will perish for continuing in their sin instead of doing good works and repenting with a willful intent to change for the better.
The Narrow Way of Life is following Jesus's teachings and trying our best to do good, we must submit our will to God in order to be saved.
Love is the greatest work, from it come all others and it is Love that we must chose to do in order to be saved.
Azrael17, what you write in the first five lines above is taking the opposite side of that two headed coin of which I have described, and glorifying works when good works only occur because one has trusted Christ.
True Christianity is a melding of both FAITH in Jesus as Lord and WORKS for God as is beholding a true servant. Failure to run the thread of truth through ALL scripture is failure to have a unified God within your heart.
Heb 9:28
"So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."
I Pet 2: 24
"Who (Jesus) his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed."
(Please note that it says LIVE UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS, not confess). But there could be no righteous works outside of Christ's sacrifice--regardless how well those works might track the commandments of God.
I Pet 3:18
"For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:"
You must cut out or explain away portions of the Bible to maintain works without faith, just as Mike555 must cut out or explain away portions of the Bible to maintain faith without works.
Without faith, you are a scattered man, with no unification of Jesus in your heart. Without works, you are a scattered man with no unification of Jesus in your heart. And there is no sanctification without unity in Jesus.
God calls us to a LIVING faith. One that does not emphasize orthodoxy (faith) above orthopraxy (right action) or to the other way around.
The problem I think W....is many don't understand what works is and represents. The love in the works is not all about the human glee and human acceptance in the social need. It becomes a barrier and shuts out the idea in the living faith. And to say people are not saved because they believe in the Trinity or the essence and reality of the event of the cross is hard to understand...plus worship is just a word, but what the said above declaration does indirectly is cut off a distinction between God and man by saying I'm no different or just as valuable as Jesus himself. These barriers I think have more to do with deeply seated blame issues and produce what is felt, a pointed charge against innocent others. Escapism. Freedom gets lost in the shuffle. Very passionate indeed.
Last edited by macpherson; 08-18-2013 at 10:27 AM..
As I've stated many times, don't tell me you are saved, show me you are saved. Salvation if the grace of God and is demonstrated in the life of a true believer. Your doctrine says there is no demonstration of a changed life. Then how is anyone looking at someone who claims to be a Christian to know if they are saved. That "saved" person does the same things, says the same things, lives the same way, but Jesus came into their life?
Jesus said there would be fruit from those that follow Him. Without fruit they would be cast into the fire. I haven't made God out to be a liar, you've failed to see how big He really is. He wants to make a DIFFERENCE in your life, not just in your thinking.
As quoted on the other thread, Matthew 15:7 "Hypocrites, well did Esaiah prophesy of you, saying, 'This people draw nigh to me with their mouth, and honour me with their lips; but their hearts are far from me."
If you confess Christ with your lips you have drawn nigh to God with your mouth. But how is anyone to know that you are a Christian if you don't live like Him, like He commanded? And the Jesus who called those religious people "hypocrites" is so shallow that He would bless a one time confession of Him that never shows evidence of change---and some who actually do evil while murdering people?
The picture of that mass murderer in the LA Fitness Center in Pittsburgh (post 195), gives new and ugly meaning to the phrase "Praise the Lord, and Pass the Ammunition."
Right doctrine leads to right living. It's not a case of "well, it might lead to right living, and it might not, but glory to God your in our camp now!"
You will know them by their fruits--
Matthew 7:16
By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
Matthew 12:33
"Make a tree good and its fruit will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.
Luke 6:44
Each tree is recognized by its own fruit. People do not pick figs from thornbushes, or grapes from briers.
James 3:12
My brothers and sisters, can a fig tree bear olives, or a grapevine bear figs? Neither can a salt spring produce fresh water.
I'm seeing too many "grapes" on thornbushes, and bad fruit from good trees from the OSAS doctrine. All sorts of people are making "decisions" for Jesus every Sunday morning. Why are you unable to recognize them by their fruit? Jesus said you can. If you are really, truly a Christian you, and I mean YOU, Mike, can recognize them by their fruits. But your judgment for them, unlike that of Jesus, is that they are simply backslidden, unfruitful Christians.
Matthew 7:19
Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Is there going to be a fire in heaven for those unfruitful Christians?
Is there going to be a fire in heaven for those unfruitful Christians? The answer of course is yes as 1 Corinthians 3:15 states.
1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
1.) Who will enter into the kingdom of heaven? Matthew 7:21 tells us.
Matthew 7:21 ''Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
2.) What then is the will of the Father? John 6:40 tells us.
John 6:40 ''For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes on Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.''
3.) What must be done to do the work of the Father? John 6:28, 29 tells us.
John 6:27 "Do not work for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give to you, for on Him the Father, God, has set His seal." 28] Therefore they said to Him, "What shall we do, so that we may work the works [erga; Plural - works] of God?" 29] Jesus answered and said to them, "This is the work [ergon;Singular- one work] of God, that you believe on Him whom He has sent."
The will of the Father is to believe on the Son. The work of the Father is to believe on the Son.
When Jesus said not to work for the food that perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, He was asked by the crowd what those plural works were that they might be saved. But Jesus corrected the crowd by telling them that there was but one singular work by which they could be saved. And that one singular work was to believe on Him. This is in contrast to 'works'. One singular work - believe on Him.
John 6:39-40 show the believer's eternal security.
John 6:39 This is the will of Him who sent Me, that all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day. 40] ''For this is the will of My Father, that everyone who beholds the Son and believes on Him will have eternal life, and I Myself will raise him up on the last day.''
The believer's eternal security is seen by the fact that the Father's will is that those whom He has given to Jesus not be lost, but raised up on the last day. That everyone who believes on Jesus will have eternal life and that Jesus will raise him up on the last day.
John 6:39-40 is strong in affirming the eternal security of the believer.
Just to address the first verse you listed, Matthew 7:16...
The reference is to false prophets, Perhaps referring to the Pharisees. Outwardly they seemed to be good men who spoke of the kingdom and the Messiah, but did not recognize the Messiah even though He stood right in front of them. They were leading others astray with their teaching. What they taught was their bad fruit. And though at the judgment they will say that they prophesied, cast out demons, and performed many miracles in His name, He will tell them to depart from Him because He never knew them.
Despite their prophesying, their casting out of demons, their performance of many miracles, Jesus will say that they practiced lawlessness, and that He never knew them. They did not do the will of the Father. And as seen above, the will of the Father is to believe on Jesus Christ.
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Azrael, you have adopted the second side of the coin while rejecting the first
