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I agree 100%. I would just add that this doesn't mean that we must be perfect. As human beings, we're incapable of being perfect. We must, however, be truly committed to Christ and continue to repent when we fall short.
It means we must be seeking perfection. I disagree wtith the statment that as human being's we are incapable of being perfect. Jesus was a Human Being and was perfect.
If you believe that then you're saying the sacrifice of Jesus was insufficient in saving us. You believe Adam's sin has more power than Jesus' righteousness. We are saved because Jesus obeyed. Our obedience cannot make us anymore righteous that Jesus has already made us.
I say Jesus said to obey His commandments or you will be cut off and thrown into the fire. Do you believe Jesus, or do you have to "interpret" what He means? I don't, because I believe ALL the scriptures. He mentioned all sorts of things that one must do---over and over and over. But you have fallen into a trap because either you cannot or are not willing to obey Him, but need justification for essentially ignoring His commandments.
You MUST have faith. No doubt about it.
You MUST have works. No doubt about that either.
Either you believe ALL the scripture or you truncate the portions that are too much for you to bear, or make other justifications about why faith is a solitary thing. There's an old hymn called, Trust and Obey, a very good one for all Christians to keep to the forefront of their daily lives.
I say Jesus said to obey His commandments or you will be cut off and thrown into the fire. Do you believe Jesus, or do you have to "interpret" what He means? I don't, because I believe ALL the scriptures. He mentioned all sorts of things that one must do---over and over and over. But you have fallen into a trap because either you cannot or are not willing to obey Him, but need justification for essentially ignoring His commandments.
You MUST have faith. No doubt about it.
You MUST have works. No doubt about that either.
Either you believe ALL the scripture or you truncate the portions that are too much for you to bear, or make other justifications about why faith is a solitary thing. There's an old hymn called, Trust and Obey, a very good one for all Christians to keep to the forefront of their daily lives.
So do you believe He throws the righteous into the fire?
I agree 100%. I would just add that this doesn't mean that we must be perfect. As human beings, we're incapable of being perfect. We must, however, be truly committed to Christ and continue to repent when we fall short.
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Originally Posted by trettep
It means we must be seeking perfection. I disagree wtith the statment that as human being's we are incapable of being perfect. Jesus was a Human Being and was perfect.
The word translated as "perfect" is more properly translated as "mature." It doesn't have the same meaning as "perfect" in English today.
I disagree wtith the statment that as human being's we are incapable of being perfect. Jesus was a Human Being and was perfect.
Let's talk about this more. I'm leaving now and won't be back till evening, but I'd like to explore this idea with you further.
Meanwhile, here's an analogy I'd like to ask you to think about... Let's say a student starts attending a university and commits to getting nothing less than a perfect 4.0 grade point average throughout the time he's in school. Right off the bat, though, he gets an A-, so for one class, his 3.667 grade must be averaged in with his other 4.0 grades. As the progressive semesters go by, he never again gets a grade lower than an A (4.0). By the time he graduates, he has a grade point average of 3.99998. Pretty darned good, but not perfect. A single A-, as opposed to an A, kept him from meeting his goal of "perfection." As a matter of fact, he could continue to go to school for the rest of his life and his sumulative GPA would never, ever be 4.0. This is what I mean when I say that, as human beings, we're incapable of being perfect. If we have committed even one sin in our lives, we are no longer perfect.
On the other hand, because our sins are forgiven by Christ's Atonement, we can be "perfect in Christ." In other words, our imperfect selves can be made perfect through His infinite goodness and absolute perfection. We can't do it alone, though. That may not make sense, but I don't have time to further clarify what I mean right now.
So are you seriously saying that we are not held accountable for any wrongs we do as long as we have faith in Christ? Are you saying that we can completely ignore His commandments, sin without impunity, treat our fellow human beings any way we want to and God will simply turn a blind eye to our hypocrisy because we have said, "Jesus, save me!"?
For the life of me, I can't imagine why people think that if your sins are forgiven, you automatically go crazy and run out into the street to find a way to sin. Someone posted a video of someone who claims since they were forgiven, they went out and started killing people. Yeah, that happens all the time.
The bible says the opposite. If you try to keep the law, you give sin strength. If you're under grace, then sin doesn't have strength over you.
I'm not sure what you mean by commandments. If you mean the law, then we aren't under it anymore. If you're talking about good works, loving people, etc. that's an outflow from grace and a relationship with Christ. It's a response, not a requirement to be saved.
If someone is caught up in sin, then it's a matter of renewing the mind to their identity in Christ. It's not right living, it's right believing. That's what I'm seriously saying.
For the life of me, I can't imagine why people think that if your sins are forgiven, you automatically go crazy and run out into the street to find a way to sin. Someone posted a video of someone who claims since they were forgiven, they went out and started killing people. Yeah, that happens all the time.
I can't for the life of me imagine that either. Furthermore, I can't imagine why you thought that was what I way saying. The truth of the matter is that there are a whole lot of people who insist that they are "saved" who do not live very Christlike lives and who insist that this doesn't matter one darned bit to God.
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I'm not sure what you mean by commandments. Jesus told His followers that we are to keep God's commandments. If you mean the law, then we aren't under it anymore. If you're talking about good works, loving people, etc. that's an outflow from grace and a relationship with Christ. It's a response, not a requirement to be saved.
Jesus told His followers that we were to keep God's commandments. While we are no longer living under the Mosaic law, we are still obliged to do all of the things Jesus Christ taught us to do. And a great many of the people who claim to have a relationship with Christ do not follow His commandments. As to what these commandments are, that might best be discussed on another thread. As to whether or not Jesus told those who chose to follow Him, to keep God's commandments, that part is non-debatable. I'm sure I don't have to copy and paste a bunch of verses from the Bible to illustrate that point.
As to whether good works are "an outflow from grace," I believe they are. But this is very much like the debate of which came first, the chicken or the egg. The bottom line is that while we are not saved by our works, Jesus was not just talking to hear himself talk when He said, "If ye love me, keep mycommandments. He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him." He meant what He said. God will forgive the truly repentant sinner who looks to Jesus Christ for the remission of his sins. That's grace.
The word translated as "perfect" is more properly translated as "mature." It doesn't have the same meaning as "perfect" in English today.
Sorry MysticPhD, I believe it means "perfect" as we view the word today.
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I'm saying Jesus said to obey His commandments
