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Old 08-16-2013, 02:54 PM
 
Location: New England
37,336 posts, read 28,087,833 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Thanks for the thorough response.



You did give me a clear picture, and I don't believe you're talking Christian-ese either.




Thanks Jerwade.

So, one last question for all 3 of you, but it's probably the most difficult. As pcamps quoted, "as a man thinks in his heart, so is he." There is a difference, I believe, between "thinking in the heart" and "thinking in our head". The first is an actual conviction/faith, where the second is a mental assent to something that may or may not be a conviction. The conviction of who God is and who we are, I believe, is necessary for transformation to take place.

How did/do you move from mental assent to conviction? Was it a one time event? A process? If it's a process, what is the process?
When it says heart, in my opinion it means innermost being( the person we really are). Conviction for me comes by the attention we give it, the more we look at something the more real it becomes.Paul taught us to be transformed by the renewing of the mind and to set our affections on things above, these things can never done without giving our attention to them. I do believe it is a process, nature all around us teaches us this.

But we all, with unveiled face beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

We are changed into the image we are looking at. I look at it as becoming in reality who we really are.
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Old 08-16-2013, 03:16 PM
 
198 posts, read 261,496 times
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I have faith that 1st there is a God. I have faith that there is only 1 God. I have faith that he sent his son Jesus Christ to die for our sins. I have faith that he IS who he says he is. And that he will do what he said he will do.
An unbeliever will probably have a hard time understanding how having this faith can "save" us as you put it, and from what. If someone doesn't believe in God to begin with, they will not believe there is anything to be saved from. It is BECAUSE I have faith that I am or will be saved. Not the other way around.
Saved from, death, saved from eternal punishment.
It is impacting my life because my treasures are not stored here on earth, but in heaven. It's about having a life of joy and peace because I know that I am not in control, but God is. He is my protection and provider therefore I have no worries of this life, because on that final day, I will be caught up with Jesus and will gain eternal life.

Last edited by mszlady; 08-16-2013 at 03:26 PM..
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Old 08-16-2013, 03:17 PM
 
670 posts, read 811,114 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
With all the discussions on faith and works going on lately, fwhere it seems that the general consensus among everyone is that faith will produce "works" my question is, faith in what?

I know many Christians will say that they have faith that Jesus died to satisfy God's wrath so they could escape that wrath. But for those who do not agree with that,

what is it you have faith in,
how is having faith in it "saving" you,
how is it impacting your life
and if you expect it to impact your "after-life", in what way?

This isn't meant to be a debate thread, though I suppose it has a good chance of turning into that. But, I'm personally just interested in hearing your various answers. And I'm hoping for as little "Christian-ese" (Sunday School responses) as possible.
Faith in What?
I have faith in a God who is loving and all powerful.
I have faith in Christs teachings that they are good and that if I do my best to follow them I will be a better person.
We are saved not by blood but by repenting and doing good works.

I feel I am a better person because I try my best to be helpful and loving towards others.
I believe that I will be allowed into paradise so long as I try my best to be the best I can.
Hard work pays off.
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Old 08-16-2013, 04:05 PM
 
Location: Tennessee
10,688 posts, read 7,656,145 times
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Default Good question

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Would you be willing to expand on the bold? What does the "truth of God as revealed to us in Jesus Christ" mean to you? I'm not trying to drill you, Warden, and feel free to stop answering if it gets tedious .
This is not tedious at all, and in fact your very line of questioning in this thread should have every responder, especially including me, to think carefully about what the truth of God means to them.

As Christians, we know that Jesus is “the Way, the Truth and the Life”, but how does that fact help us to live our lives in accordance with His Will? We need a set of guidelines to help us make moral decisions, based on His truth.

Truth is the interrelated consistency of statements and their correspondence with the facts of reality and the facts themselves. It suggests an integration of character, and adherence of virtue, a kind of reliability, which includes and goes beyond the literal meaning to include those aspects of personal behavior which seem to be implied by the love of truth. The concept of truth is derived from the character of God, and is the exact opposite of the concept of lying. "It is impossible for God to lie."

Since it is impossible for God to lie we know that everything He says about what will happen will actually take place. If we are to become perfect we need to be known as individuals who tell the truth, like God. That means when we promise something we need to keep that promise or not make it in the first place. We need to try to place ourselves in situations where we don't feel the need to lie to defend either ourselves or our behavior.

John 8:31b-32If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

Now faith is still below the greatest virtue--love
Quote:
New International Version I Cor 13:13
And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.
Love is the greatest, because it is the root of the other two; "we believe only in that which we love; we hope only for that which we love.
And love is the greatest because love is for our neighbours; faith and hope mainly for ourselves.
And love is the greatest because faith and hope are human, but God is love.
And love is the greatest because faith and hope can only work by love, and only show themselves by love.

So Jesus revealed love to us in how he treated individuals lost in sin. And if I have that love in me, it is demonstrated by how I treat those who are lost in sin. And might I note, that Jesus is not so very kind to the religious people of His day. He is quite harsh with them, knowing that the tendency of self-righteousness is greatest among those who are the most religious. That includes me!!! So every day I must weigh what I do with an eye toward remaining humble while loving the lost.

I'm not always as successful as I would like to be, or as my Savior would have me be.

Last edited by Wardendresden; 08-16-2013 at 04:07 PM.. Reason: formatting
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Old 08-16-2013, 06:32 PM
 
63,461 posts, read 39,726,177 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
Thanks for the thorough response.
So, one last question for all 3 of you, but it's probably the most difficult. As pcamps quoted, "as a man thinks in his heart, so is he." There is a difference, I believe, between "thinking in the heart" and "thinking in our head". The first is an actual conviction/faith, where the second is a mental assent to something that may or may not be a conviction. The conviction of who God is and who we are, I believe, is necessary for transformation to take place.
How did/do you move from mental assent to conviction? Was it a one time event? A process? If it's a process, what is the process?
I am afraid that my situation precludes me from helping you to make the transition, Pleroo. I had no mental assent to begin with . . . as a full-blown atheist. My experiences led to my conviction . . . THEN I made the investment of intellectual effort to understand it and explain it all to my intellect. That was when I assented to it all. I believe that is the opposite of what you are seeking, Pleroo. Let me tell you what I think your situation is (correct me if I am wrong) . . . and I will suggest what I see as the solution to your predicament.

It seems you began with mental assent (believing it to be conviction) and then gradually lost it due to the fragility of the retained ancient ignorance passing for explanations . . . when exposed to our increased knowledge and understanding. This produced an abreaction (over-reaction) in the opposite direction producing atheism and skepticism about all the childish nonsense. Eventually you came to see that there are other ways to see the primitive claims that make sense to your intellect . . . but now you are concerned about getting an inner conviction. Let me suggest that what you are actually seeking is an intellectual awareness of an inner conviction that I believe you already possess.

Check yourself. What we tend to resonate with (desire, find acceptable, wish to be true, etc.), what we want to motivate us, what we seek to be like, what we focus on in life (carnal or spiritual issues) . . . are all indices of what our inner convictions really are. We are not used to thinking about things that way . . . but since over 80% of our behaviors and attitudes are not directed by our conscious control . . . it is important to recognize the truth of it. That is why "fruits" are the main method for discerning the Spirit that guides and drives ourselves and others. I hope this helps.
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Old 08-17-2013, 01:42 AM
 
Location: Arizona
28,956 posts, read 16,192,722 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
How did/do you move from mental assent to conviction? Was it a one time event?
A process? If it's a process, what is the process?
Religion is a mindset or virus that inhibits rational thought; it divides mankind, infecting their emotions.
You must first purge what you have learned or been taught that separates you from the Spirit of love.

Learned behavior includes any behavior that is the result of being nurtured, rather than that of nature.
Babies can be put underwater in a swimming pool when first born and they
know to hold their breath.
Children are not born with prejudices or preconceptions formed
beforehand without it being taught.

Although we cannot totally change our nature:

"We may in great measure correct our behaviors through reflection and philosophy."
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Old 08-17-2013, 03:02 AM
 
680 posts, read 634,406 times
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If the Spirit that drew you to the Word, as written in
Spoiler
1 Cor 15:19
hope, faith and charity in Christ is all you need to begin walking in truth.
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Old 08-17-2013, 08:31 AM
Zur
 
949 posts, read 825,344 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
That's not what Jesus said: “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
to hear is to do, otherwise we deceive ourselves (Jam 1:22). The gift of eternal life is Jesus Christ, Who has the Son is saved, who has not, is not saved (1.John 5:12). Therefore we have to abide in Him. 1. John 3:15 says that who hates his brother, everlasting life does not abide in him, that means we can loose our salvation easier than many believe. But God´s word is clear (Mat 5:22). It is possible to crucify the Son of God afresh (Heb 6:6). Christians can fall away from faith, draw back (Heb 10:38+39) or get shipwrecked in their faith. Heb 9:27 says that after our lifetime we will be judged. Till our last breath their is repentance possible.
As believers in Jesus Christ we have the hope of salvation (1. Thess 5:8) and the insurance, when we abide in Him.
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Old 08-17-2013, 10:02 AM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 6,980,955 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post

So, it's faith that God will reward you in the afterlife that inspires you to do what you believe God is asking of you in order to receive that reward, correct?
I don't know about Warden, but I need salvation for this life. I need peace for this life to walk in this world without fainting or freaking out or losing my mind, etc. The end of our faith the SALVATION of our SOULS (mind, will and emotions).
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Old 08-17-2013, 10:52 AM
 
Location: Tucson, Arizona
987 posts, read 1,112,600 times
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My faith has evolved radically over my life. My first faith came instantaneously when I had a certain conviction that there was someone who was overseeing the universe to make sure it didn't spin out of control. I thought that I had to live by certain rules and THEN I would be rewarded with the desires of my heart. When that didn't happen even when I was doing my best I became disillusioned and began to think of God as some stern parent figure who doled out punishments easily but rewards were very sparing and required great effort. As a teenager and young adult I felt that I wasn't able to be the kind of person God REQUIRED to be eligible for the promises so I quit trying and just tried to find the things that would make me happy. There was always a small fear that even tho I wasn't a horrible person, my current lack of effort to conform was going to send me to hell but I could not change.

Gradually my heart returned to God as a personal creator and I came to believe that it was Christ's work that made me acceptable in the Father's sight. I was more comfortable and could pray with an easier mind. I went to church, volunteered for ministries, helped with a program to feed and monitor the homeless when it was the church's turn to house them. My love for God became stronger but I was disturbed that it still seemed I didn't do enough. I sacrificially gave of our income to the church and ministries. It just didn't seem like it was enough to make me sure I was 'worthy.' Then one day I had faith that I was secure, that it had nothing to do with my works. That was sufficient for quite a few years and then I became burdened for those who seemed unable to believe. I started looking at what the different churches said was 'required' for salvation. Being dunked in water seemed ridiculous to me. Not that I would ever say don't be baptized. But I decided that if we had nothing to do with our physical birth, why would we have anything to do with our spiritual birth? No personal decision was required for the one, why the other? I set out to find a reason water baptism was necessary and it started me down the road that ended in my belief in universal reconciliation and now my faith is solely in the Creator to finish what He started and that He will let NOTHING not even his willful creation, stand in His way to Accomplish His Purposes in Creation. But when He is all in all, His glory will outshine 10,000,000,000 suns and we will all see the wisdom of His plan and the wounds and arrows we endured in this short time span will be as a mosquito bite 20 years ago, hardly remembered. This is the faith I have. That God did not let the creation decide where it would go, but that He is working out ALL things in accordance with His own will. Hallelujah. What a Savior.

How does it impact my life? I rest in Him who will do His work in me as He sees fit. I no longer look at my works. I offer hope and encouragement if He sends the prompting to my heart. I know that many would look at me and say I am not a good Christian. I don't care. I only care what He tells me and He tells me He loves me and all His plans for me are good, even when it seems nothing is going right for me in the here and now. I am aware most Christians think I'm a heretic and apathetic. So be it. My heart belongs to God and I will let Him be my judge and everyone else's judge.

Be blessed.
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