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I haven't changed positions. I'm arguing the idea that, if we think someone has committed an atrocious "sin," then we ought to look at who actually committed it, and not the one who ordered it.
Yet on the grand scale of things, everyone, including Hitler (who I think has committed less atrocities than many other people) will be healed, converted, saved, sanctified.
And, if we say we are Christians, we ought to also heal and forgive others, and not participate in committing atrocities, no matter who commands it.
Peace.
brian
well, Noble.
However, Christian witnessing for peace can be powerful, but should not come at the expense of the individual men and women who bear the cost — in their bodies and in their souls — of the devastation of war.
I say this with love and respect. Those that have commented on Soldiers being "murders" by simply signing a contract to protect his/her nation, shame on you. Shame on you for alienating a large portion of the body of Christ that the Church represents. Only God knows what is in the hearts of those called to serve their country.
Soldiers do not join so they can go and kill people. They join to protect their nation and their fellow citizens from foreign attack. And sometimes other countries ask for help when they are being overrun by aggressors.
You are the one who believe soldiers are condemned, but Hitler would be forgiven. I found your logic strange and offensive. Sorry.
However, Christian witnessing for peace can be powerful, but should not come at the expense of the individual men and women who bear the cost — in their bodies and in their souls — of the devastation of war.
I say this with love and respect. Those that have commented on Soldiers being "murders" by simply signing a contract to protect his/her nation, shame on you. Shame on you for alienating a large portion of the body of Christ that the Church represents. Only God knows what is in the hearts of those called to serve their country.
You are the one who believe soldiers are condemned, but Hitler would be forgiven. I found your logic strange and offensive. Sorry.
All wars are based on political interests of those in power. No matter what the excuse, Christians are not called to kill other men for Christ. This is not the message of the Gospel. The Kingdom is about a totally different conflict: a spiritual one.
If you want to wave the flag, that's your prorogative. But it's not what Christ calls us to do.
This is how I read the Gospel. There are people, however, who believe that it's fine to kill others and still be considered saved. To me, I see all killing as the same, no matter who does it.
I haven't changed positions. I'm arguing the idea that, if we think someone has committed an atrocious "sin," then we ought to look at who actually committed it, and not the one who ordered it.
Yet on the grand scale of things, everyone, including Hitler (who I think has committed less atrocities than many other people) will be healed, converted, saved, sanctified.
And, if we say we are Christians, we ought to also heal and forgive others, and not participate in committing atrocities, no matter who commands it.
Peace.
brian
The person who orders a murder is just as guilty as the person who carries the murder out.
When a person drives the get-away car in a robbery he is arrested and sentenced as though he had committed the robbery, even if he never left his car.
Only a fool would insist that Hitler "never killed anyone".
All wars are based on political interests of those in power. No matter what the excuse, Christians are not called to kill other men for Christ. This is not the message of the Gospel. The Kingdom is about a totally different conflict: a spiritual one.
If you want to wave the flag, that's your prorogative. But it's not what Christ calls us to do.
This is how I read the Gospel. There are people, however, who believe that it's fine to kill others and still be considered saved. To me, I see all killing as the same, no matter who does it.
Peace.
brian
As for the Soldier, Sailor, Marine, Airman, Coast Guard person, who serves and is involved imminently or remotely in deadly combat, no one can judge that person except his/her own conscience before God. We have a right to defend ourselves, and others who cannot defend themselves. Whether or not a specific war (Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan) is moral to begin with, depends on the morality of those civilians at the head of government who make such decisions. Let's face it. There have been many poor and immoral decisions in recent history.
Location: Democratic Peoples Republic of Redneckistan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trettep
Everyone will eventually be members of God's Kingdom. God doesn't throw the baby out with the bathwater. Hitler will be judged with righteous judgement and after paying any price given, he will then live the rest of eternity having secured the Life of God.
You have scripture to back that claim up?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658
James said:
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
I am certain Hitler did not do any work towards salvation.
But, if in an instant before death he accepted Jesus he was covered by salvation. I don't buy it--- too easy!!
Hitler saved, yeah right.
Not saying anything either way about what his last seconds before death entailed and whether he asked forgiveness or not..but..if he DID then the parables of the workers in the vineyard pretty much covers it as far as "works" etc etc don't you think? Matthew 20:1-16 NIV - The Parable of the Workers in the - Bible Gateway
The person who orders a murder is just as guilty as the person who carries the murder out.
When a person drives the get-away car in a robbery he is arrested and sentenced as though he had committed the robbery, even if he never left his car.
Only a fool would insist that Hitler "never killed anyone".
Many governments that I know of have ordered the killing of others. The US is not exempt. So Hitler is not unique. Why focus on him? Let's focus on today.
As for the Soldier, Sailor, Marine, Airman, Coast Guard person, who serves and is involved imminently or remotely in deadly combat, no one can judge that person except his/her own conscience before God. We have a right to defend ourselves, and others who cannot defend themselves. Whether or not a specific war (Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan) is moral to begin with, depends on the morality of those civilians at the head of government who make such decisions. Let's face it. There have been many poor and immoral decisions in recent history.
I don't judge anyone, including Hitler.
I do not believe in the idea of "defending oneself" however. Jesus wasn't American, and he didn't participate in the military. He didn't vote. He didn't even buy a home.
Many governments that I know of have ordered the killing of others. The US is not exempt. So Hitler is not unique. Why focus on him? Let's focus on today.
Peace.
brian
well, start your own thread then. op is about Hitler.
If Hitler didn't kill anybody himself, then why all this talk about him? The ones who do the killing are the guilty ones. The military commanders, soldiers, etc. are the ones who committed the atrocities, not Hitler.
So Hitler would stand a better chance of being "forgiven" than many SS soldiers.
In addition, many leaders (some of whom are apparently your heroes) are also guilty of ordering the deaths of others, including civilians. Why focus on Hitler? What makes him so "special??"
Peace.
brian
Quote:
Originally Posted by ahigherway
I don't judge anyone, including Hitler.
I do not believe in the idea of "defending oneself" however. Jesus wasn't American, and he didn't participate in the military. He didn't vote. He didn't even buy a home.
Peace.
brian
LOL Please don't tell me you don't judge. you did.
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