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I think the tone of post #1 agitates and antagonizes Protestants more than need be. I'm not sure about the title. The title is fair and can be construed as accurate on one hand, but it depends on the actual Protestant reading it and where they are in life or where they have come from as to if they'll interpret the title as fair or antagonistic.
Overall, I'm pleased to see in the video the Holy Mother receiving greater due and attention from her Protestant children, even if it comes in a less perfect way than the reverence we give her in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.
But I don't think any Catholic should use this new attention by some Protestants to gloat over Protestants. That does no good. There is a bigger enemy the two face anyways, all religions face actually.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
I have no problem whatsoever with giving her respect, and realizing that God blessed her greatly. But the language that the Catholic church uses regarding Mary, calling her the Queen of Heaven, Mediatrix, Co-Rdemptrix, etc, and directing prayer toward her is too much. We have direct access to Jesus -- we don't need to go through her to get to him. I realize they don't believe they are praying to Mary in the same way as God, but I'm sorry....it's just too much.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vizio
I firmly believe she was a virgin at the time of Jesus' birth...but do you believe Mary remained a virgin? If so, why? Does it affect your faith in any way whether she remained a virgin or not?
So, in the first paragraph you want to limit conception of the Virgin Mary to the short Biblical statement calling her "blessed among women," and go know further past that using human reasoning or theological inquiry.
But in the second paragraph you want to go extra-Biblical and use human reasoning to theologically inquire further as to her sexual life after giving birth to Jesus?
This inquiry and mind of yours I suppose you regard as more excellent and bolstered by the grace of the Holy Spirit than the Popes and 2,000 years Catholic and Orthodox Christianity?
Has God so given you a negative charism that when you read scripture you can only teach what has always been taught in Christianity from time immemorial?
The Holy Mother of God remained virgin because 2,000 years of Eastern and Western (Catholic alone in this case as Protestants don't accept this) Christianity says so. The Bible doesn't state if Jesus got married at age 16 or 18 or if He was off dating girls either. But the 2,000 years of Christianity in the Orthodox and Catholic Church says He remained virgin.
(Enter the agnostics and atheists to stir the pot and bring up Gnostic texts to suggest they were orthodox Christians--the term "orthodox" meaning "rightful teaching" or "right spirit of worship.")
The Virgin Mary was not a footnote to the salvation story. She was essential to it. She was the New Eve as Jesus was the New Adam. And her Son would have to honor and obey the 10 Commandments one of which is honor your parents.
We can use human reason to lead us to the conclusion Jesus honored his Mother who breast fed him and raised him (whom he lived with presumably as an adult) at least as perfectly as good Protestant men honor their own mothers. And what Protestant man does not ask or expect due respect be given his mother by other women and men?
This respect can even be perceived in the New Testament wherein the author choose to depict Jesus first miracle beginning with the intervention of his mother on behalf of other people. The Wedding at Cana.
As for prayer... that's not the form of "worship" depicted in Genesis as the height of worship to God. Nor is it the depicted test of Abraham before an angel stops him. And prayer is not what got Early Christians in Rome martyred. Worship in Biblical times was not prayer but offering sacrifices (ergo, Christian martyrs in Rome refusing to offer sacrifices to pagan gods).
The alter, with the sacrifice of the Mass, is the highest form of worship in Catholicism and the Orthodox Church arguably. Because it is the sacrifice of Jesus on the cross in which time collapses to Calvary.
Prayer can be used as a form of worship but it is not worship in and of itself. Words can be used as a form of worship too. So can paintings. That does not mean all words strung together to form a sentence, or all paintings composed, are meant, intended, used as worship.
Is this worshiping a President of the United States?
Eh... I thought people died and went to hell or heaven and no Early Christian cared about bones, dead people, or memorials like statues. Yet I live in a Protestant nation with statues of dead soldiers and war heroes all over. What are they honoring or crying over or praying over?
Couldn't possibly be like going into a Basilica built over the tomb of St. Peter or lighting candles under a painting of the Virgin Mary?
As augiedogie said earlier, when someone positions themselves between God\Jesus and salvation, praise, honor \ worship, they are serving the lie.
2 Thessalonians 2:9-10 The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with how Satan works. He will use all sorts of displays of power through signs and wonders that serve the lie, and all the ways that wickedness deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.
For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
This diversion away from God by people using Mary was already taking place in Jesus' day when it was said:
Luke 11:27-28
As Jesus was saying these things, a woman in the crowd called out, “Blessed is the mother who gave you birth and nursed you.”
and Jesus refuted that by saying "rather"
He replied, “Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and obey it.”
It is not coincidental that these "Mary" sightings have the same common link to "The coming of the lawless one "
which God teaches is the AntiChrist whom Protestant Church and Luther and the other reformers of his day confessed,
"The marks of the Antichrist plainly agree with the kingdom of the Pope and his adherents...." (Power and Primacy of the Pope, 39)
Last edited by twin.spin; 09-07-2013 at 11:15 AM..
Reason: spacing gremlins
Here he goes again. First he lumps all Protestants together, calling it the Protestant Church, when in fact there are thousands of denominations.
THE VIRGIN MARY
Mary the physical mother of Jesus is of great importance to Catholics, but the Bible says very little about Mary. Here is a summary of what the Bible says about her:
The Bible describes Mary as the physical mother of Jesus, and that she was made pregnant by God. (Matthew 1:16, Luke 1:26-42, Luke 2:5-19) Mary visited her cousin Elisabeth (Luke 1:39-56) Mary attended a feast at Jerusalem with her family. (Luke 2:48-51) Mary is present at a marriage feast. (John 2:1-10) Mary looked for Jesus when He was teaching inside a house (Matthew 12:46-47, Mark 3:31, Luke 8:19). Mary went to see Jesus at the cross (John 19:25-27). Mary was committed to the care of Jesus' disciple John. (John 19:27) Mary lived with the disciples in Jerusalem for a while (Acts 1:14).
So everything Catholics say about Mary that is not in the Bible is based on tradition rather than the truth revealed to us God's Word. Nowhere does the Bible say Mary was greater than any other Christian, she was just a human like all of us. The Bible does not say people should worship Mary or pray to Mary. The Bible does not say Mary prays for us.
Some Catholics may believe and teach that Mary acts as a mediator between people and God, but this is the opposite to the Bible which says, Jesus is only mediator between God and mankind. (1 Timothy 2:5)
Praying to Mary, singing to Mary, and bowing down or kissing statues of Mary, might even be classed as a form of Idol worship, which Jesus said was wrong. For He said we must worship and serve God alone (Matthew 4:10). And Mary was a person.
Mary is not the gate of heaven as some Catholics say, for Jesus Himself said that He is the way and nobody comes to the Father except through Him (John 14:6). And the Bible also says, there is no other name except that of Jesus by which we are saved (Acts 4:12).
A popular belief among Catholics is that Mary never did any sin, but the Bible says everyone has sinned (Romans 5:12-13, 1 Kings 8:46, 1 John 1:8-10, Psalm 53:3). Mary even admitted she needed a Saviour for she called God her Saviour (Luke 1:46-47). Jesus is the only person who has not sinned, and Jesus was God.
Some Catholics believe Mary never had any other children. But the Bible says Mary did have other children (Matthew 13:55-56).
Some Catholics often call Mary the mother of God, but God does not have a mother, for God and Jesus already existed before Mary existed (Isaiah 43:10). Mary was not God's mother, but simply a channel through which Jesus entered this physical world.
Here he goes again. First he lumps all Protestants together, calling it the Protestant Church, when in fact there are thousands of denominations.
You are correct, there are about 40-50 thousand denominations. You know why? Because for these folks religion is a business.
Your diatribe against the The Blessed Virgin is based on your Bible interpretation. You forget that the RCC is more than the Bible. IN fact, the RCC precedes the Bible.
Furthermore, God is MUCH MORE than the Bible. The Bible is a very useful book, but, it cannot be the accurate word of God. Too many errors and contradictions to be the true word of God.
Lastly, you were incorrect in quoting the Bible regarding the Virgin Mary:
Hail Mary, full of Grace, (Luke 1:28)
The Lord is with you, (Luke 1:28)
Blessed are you among women, (Luke 1:41)
And blessed is
the fruit of thy womb Jesus, (Luke 1:42)
Holy Mary, Mother of God, (Luke 1:43)
Pray for us sinners,
now and at the hour of our death, (James 5:16)
The anti-Christ comes in the form of human religiosity; dividing the Spirit from the Soul within men.
If you like esoteric sayings that are poetic and sound like they say more they actually do, then perhaps you should practice some non-Christian religion of East Asia.
Human religiosity is nonsensical.
It merely divides and separates.
So are the Republican and Democratic parties. So are the invisible national boundary line separating the United States from Mexico and Canada.
I don't see Pope Francis call for believers of all faith across the world to unite in prayer to ask God to halt a U.S.-French military action against Syria any more divisive than say.... a U.S.-French military assault on Syria.
But hey! go forth with the esoteric comments posed as sentential logic.
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Yet I live in a Protestant nation with statues of dead soldiers and war heroes all over. What are they honoring or crying over or praying over?
