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Old 09-06-2013, 11:45 PM
 
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Crystal McVea died on the operating table for nine minutes because her body could not clear the anesthetic properly and she overdosed. While doctors worked frantically to revive the clinically dead woman she was spending a blissful nine minutes in heaven in the presence of God.

Quote:
"The moment I closed my eyes in the OR I opened them and was standing in heaven. I fail to find human words to describe what I experienced when I was there. I had angels. I had God and I fell to my knees. I use words like 'perfect', 'beautiful', 'amazing' but these words are nothing to describe what I saw."
Now by all rights, at least from the hellfire-and damnation theology, this girl should have immediately been judged guilty by God and thrown into hell's torments. She describes herself as having broken every commandment on the Mosaic tablets prior to this with no repentance. Her churchgoing was more ritualistic than anything--something that was required of her to look respectable, but when she went she felt empty and sensed no presence of God. She describes herself as a "doubter"--always wanting to believing God was real but "deep in my heart, not knowing if He was". Perfect candidate for a trip to fiery hell, right?

Describing God:

Quote:
"I saw an immense brightness...a brightness I could feel, taste, touch, hear, smell...a brightness that infused me. Not like I had five sense, but that I had five hundred senses. I didn't see a human form or face, I just saw His presence and heard Him and felt Him.
Watch the entire Fox News interview (about 3 minutes) at the link below. Scroll down for the video:

Woman Claims She Died and Woke Up With God in Heaven: ‘I Saw an Immense Brightness’ | Video | TheBlaze.com

These trips to heaven by atheists, agnostics, non-Christians, pseudo-Christians (like McVea) and backslidden Christians and meeting a loving, caring God who sends them back with a mission to tell the world how much He loves us are getting to be so commonplace, it really puts the nail into the coffin of eternal torment dogma. 'Nuff said.
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Old 09-07-2013, 05:09 AM
 
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If the woman were completely dead , the blood of Jesus would have been needed to fix her body , then she probably would have been completely judged and lost to God , as the Holy Angels brought her to be judged and waited to move her the place were God prepared ............. But her body was not completely lost and so then God sent her back to the earth to be a witness of His Glory ......... See all people will stand before Jesus after they pass on from this world ........... Still there are a lot of doubting Christians who have very little faith , and are saved by their conviction in their religious experience and are unknowingly lead by Holy Spirit , but live without expressing faith in God , were other believers in Christ have supplementary prayer is on their lives ......... Like unrepentant children, pets and animals can be saved through the blood of Jesus through Supplementary prayer in their lives by anointed Believers before they pass from this earth , where praying after they pass would be hopeless
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Old 09-07-2013, 05:50 AM
 
Location: East Coast
30,165 posts, read 19,971,676 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Crystal McVea died on the operating table for nine minutes because her body could not clear the anesthetic properly and she overdosed. While doctors worked frantically to revive the clinically dead woman she was spending a blissful nine minutes in heaven in the presence of God.



Now by all rights, at least from the hellfire-and damnation theology, this girl should have immediately been judged guilty by God and thrown into hell's torments. She describes herself as having broken every commandment on the Mosaic tablets prior to this with no repentance. Her churchgoing was more ritualistic than anything--something that was required of her to look respectable, but when she went she felt empty and sensed no presence of God. She describes herself as a "doubter"--always wanting to believing God was real but "deep in my heart, not knowing if He was". Perfect candidate for a trip to fiery hell, right?

Describing God:



Watch the entire Fox News interview (about 3 minutes) at the link below. Scroll down for the video:

Woman Claims She Died and Woke Up With God in Heaven: ‘I Saw an Immense Brightness’ | Video | TheBlaze.com

These trips to heaven by atheists, agnostics, non-Christians, pseudo-Christians (like McVea) and backslidden Christians and meeting a loving, caring God who sends them back with a mission to tell the world how much He loves us are getting to be so commonplace, it really puts the nail into the coffin of eternal torment dogma. 'Nuff said.
All this is wonderful, what is more wonderful is, this same God desires to make himself known to us in the same way as an ever present help in this life of frustration and vanity, so that we live lives of more than conquerors.

If we seek him we will find him.

Happy Saturday and the God of peace be with you all.

Last edited by pcamps; 09-07-2013 at 06:14 AM..
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Old 09-07-2013, 06:50 AM
 
Location: NJ
17,579 posts, read 38,303,849 times
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She was dreaming.
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Old 09-07-2013, 07:07 AM
 
2,564 posts, read 1,597,086 times
Reputation: 3021
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Crystal McVea died on the operating table for nine minutes because her body could not clear the anesthetic properly and she overdosed. While doctors worked frantically to revive the clinically dead woman she was spending a blissful nine minutes in heaven in the presence of God.



Now by all rights, at least from the hellfire-and damnation theology, this girl should have immediately been judged guilty by God and thrown into hell's torments. She describes herself as having broken every commandment on the Mosaic tablets prior to this with no repentance. Her churchgoing was more ritualistic than anything--something that was required of her to look respectable, but when she went she felt empty and sensed no presence of God. She describes herself as a "doubter"--always wanting to believing God was real but "deep in my heart, not knowing if He was". Perfect candidate for a trip to fiery hell, right?

Describing God:



Watch the entire Fox News interview (about 3 minutes) at the link below. Scroll down for the video:

Woman Claims She Died and Woke Up With God in Heaven: ‘I Saw an Immense Brightness’ | Video | TheBlaze.com

These trips to heaven by atheists, agnostics, non-Christians, pseudo-Christians (like McVea) and backslidden Christians and meeting a loving, caring God who sends them back with a mission to tell the world how much He loves us are getting to be so commonplace, it really puts the nail into the coffin of eternal torment dogma. 'Nuff said.
I don't understand all this arguing. On one side are people arguing about the existence of hell and eternal torment. In that camp there are ones who are condemning and judging everyone to eternal damnation. The other side says that everyone goes to heaven and there is no hell.

When you come down to it, it all means nothing. It's either there or it's not. Hell exists or it doesn't and all the arguing won't change that. Each side is fervent in their beliefs and the other side is not likely to change that. If you don't believe it, fine. Why are you arguing so much? Are you afraid it's real and trying to fool yourself and feel better?

For the ones that condemn, why? Does it make you feel better that you think your going to heaven and others will end up in hell? Are you that insecure about your salvation? Do you hate other people, including atheists so much that you want to see them burn?

The only ones I understand are people who truly believe hell is real and don't want others going there. That I get.

I personally believe in Jesus as my Savior and believe hell is real. If I'm wrong, am I going to get to heaven and God says "Mike, because you believe in hell, I'm going to create it and throw the non-believers there."? Not a chance. If everyone goes to heaven, then that's it.

On the other hand, if you don't believe it and it is real, then your unbelief won't help one bit. If your comfortable with your decision, then that's it.

It's the same as the atheists that post these threads attacking God and Christians. If you tell them they hate God, they'll say they can't hate what doesn't exist. Fine. Then they must be very, very scared that they're wrong and want to try to make themselves feel better.
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Old 09-07-2013, 08:54 AM
 
15,007 posts, read 7,534,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike930 View Post
I don't understand all this arguing. On one side are people arguing about the existence of hell and eternal torment. In that camp there are ones who are condemning and judging everyone to eternal damnation. The other side says that everyone goes to heaven and there is no hell.

When you come down to it, it all means nothing. It's either there or it's not. Hell exists or it doesn't and all the arguing won't change that. Each side is fervent in their beliefs and the other side is not likely to change that. If you don't believe it, fine. Why are you arguing so much? Are you afraid it's real and trying to fool yourself and feel better?

For the ones that condemn, why? Does it make you feel better that you think your going to heaven and others will end up in hell? Are you that insecure about your salvation? Do you hate other people, including atheists so much that you want to see them burn?

The only ones I understand are people who truly believe hell is real and don't want others going there. That I get.

I personally believe in Jesus as my Savior and believe hell is real. If I'm wrong, am I going to get to heaven and God says "Mike, because you believe in hell, I'm going to create it and throw the non-believers there."? Not a chance. If everyone goes to heaven, then that's it.

On the other hand, if you don't believe it and it is real, then your unbelief won't help one bit. If your comfortable with your decision, then that's it.

It's the same as the atheists that post these threads attacking God and Christians. If you tell them they hate God, they'll say they can't hate what doesn't exist. Fine. Then they must be very, very scared that they're wrong and want to try to make themselves feel better.
I have to disagree with your sentiment to a degree. While I agree God will not create hell and throw people into it just because some of you believe in it I, as someone who once believed that God could and would allow people to be tormented for eternity, know that if a person believes such a thing it CAN create a hellish existence for that person in the here and now, and potentially for a period of time in the hereafter.

That is the reason why I debate it with people. Hopefully pointing out how believing that a God who IS love could be the same god who created a place of endless torture is absolutely nonsensical, will at least start the ball rolling towards helping someone discard that hellish belief.
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Old 09-07-2013, 09:46 AM
 
2,564 posts, read 1,597,086 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pleroo View Post
I have to disagree with your sentiment to a degree. While I agree God will not create hell and throw people into it just because some of you believe in it I, as someone who once believed that God could and would allow people to be tormented for eternity, know that if a person believes such a thing it CAN create a hellish existence for that person in the here and now, and potentially for a period of time in the hereafter.

That is the reason why I debate it with people. Hopefully pointing out how believing that a God who IS love could be the same god who created a place of endless torture is absolutely nonsensical, will at least start the ball rolling towards helping someone discard that hellish belief.
I see your point. You have good intentions and seem to want to help people. That I understand. There are people that want to argue for the sake of arguing and that mystifies me.
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Old 09-07-2013, 10:44 AM
 
15,007 posts, read 7,534,340 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike930 View Post
I see your point. You have good intentions and seem to want to help people. That I understand. There are people that want to argue for the sake of arguing and that mystifies me.
I'm sure there are. But I don't think that's the case for most of the people who argue against the doctrine of eternal torment.
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Old 09-07-2013, 01:21 PM
 
10,179 posts, read 10,544,003 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike930 View Post
I don't understand all this arguing. On one side are people arguing about the existence of hell and eternal torment. In that camp there are ones who are condemning and judging everyone to eternal damnation. The other side says that everyone goes to heaven and there is no hell.

When you come down to it, it all means nothing. It's either there or it's not. Hell exists or it doesn't and all the arguing won't change that. Each side is fervent in their beliefs and the other side is not likely to change that. If you don't believe it, fine. Why are you arguing so much? Are you afraid it's real and trying to fool yourself and feel better?

For the ones that condemn, why? Does it make you feel better that you think your going to heaven and others will end up in hell? Are you that insecure about your salvation? Do you hate other people, including atheists so much that you want to see them burn?

The only ones I understand are people who truly believe hell is real and don't want others going there. That I get.

I personally believe in Jesus as my Savior and believe hell is real. If I'm wrong, am I going to get to heaven and God says "Mike, because you believe in hell, I'm going to create it and throw the non-believers there."? Not a chance. If everyone goes to heaven, then that's it.

On the other hand, if you don't believe it and it is real, then your unbelief won't help one bit. If your comfortable with your decision, then that's it.

It's the same as the atheists that post these threads attacking God and Christians. If you tell them they hate God, they'll say they can't hate what doesn't exist. Fine. Then they must be very, very scared that they're wrong and want to try to make themselves feel better.
Ah, at last! Someone who talks in plain English and doesn't go into a theological dissertation 10 hours long to say what he has to say.

I welcome your candor, Mike. We are on opposite sides of the fence but I appreciate your amazement at how two sides can go at each other on a topic that is impossible to prove one way or the other.

I think the reason people debate this so frenzied is because many of us universalists are "reformed" ET'ers who believe they have "seen the light" or "seen the Light" (truth) of what they perceive to be the lie of eternal torment. But there is still a 1% or maybe 0.0001% of nagging doubt in the back of their minds that haunts them to whatever degree. Such is the case with me.

But I often ask myself, "If I could forgive my child of any evil (s)he did to me and God cannot, doesn't that make me a more loving Father than God?" Don't we expect God to, at the very least, have the capability to match our level of love for our own children.

Now ponder this, If God can throw me into hell to justify His sense of justice and honor and all that (the typical nonsense ET'ers throw about about God being a God of love but also a God of justice) and I can go into hell without cursing God for what I perceive to be the grossest form of injustice done to me, doesn't that make me a better person than God. I mean, here is God passing the worst sentence imaginable on me and I go stoically without a word. Is God really going to demonstrate in from of His entire creation that His cursing me while I do not curse Him in return makes me a better person than Him?

I spent years, and continue spending years searching for the truth to whether ET is real or not. So have millions of Christians and all we've got for our troubles are calloused fingers from endlessly pecking the keyboard searching out any information we could stumble on. Doesn't that count for something before God if He going to withhold the real truth from all of us? The Bible supports three positions equally (universalism, annihilation, and eternal torment) so how are we to know?

Logically, eternal torment simply fails.
1. how could God eternally condemn His children who spent their lives searching out His ways and truths?
2. how could a just, loving God condemn 98% of His children to eternal torment simply because they didn't or couldn't find the truth about Jesus?

The stock answer is usually the diatribe concocted in the Dark Ages, "God is infinite, therefore sin must be infinite, therefore sin must be punished infinitely because it is an infinite offense against an infinite God."

I mean who in their right mind can buy into that sort of convoluted reasoning except they are looking for reasons to exclude most of humanity for their own purely selfish reasons ("The last person I want to see in heaven is that guy who insulted me many years ago. It gladdens my heart knowing he's unsaved and on his way to hell") You laugh, but a number of psychologists will tell you that's exactly what's going on in the minds of a good percentage of people who believe in eternal torment.

One last thing to ponder: Jesus Himself said to never return evil for evil but always return good for evil. Now if God instructs us to do that but He Himself cannot do the same thing when we are judged, isn't He instructing us to do something He's incapable of doing?
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Old 09-07-2013, 04:40 PM
 
2,564 posts, read 1,597,086 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Ah, at last! Someone who talks in plain English and doesn't go into a theological dissertation 10 hours long to say what he has to say.

I welcome your candor, Mike. We are on opposite sides of the fence but I appreciate your amazement at how two sides can go at each other on a topic that is impossible to prove one way or the other.

I think the reason people debate this so frenzied is because many of us universalists are "reformed" ET'ers who believe they have "seen the light" or "seen the Light" (truth) of what they perceive to be the lie of eternal torment. But there is still a 1% or maybe 0.0001% of nagging doubt in the back of their minds that haunts them to whatever degree. Such is the case with me.

But I often ask myself, "If I could forgive my child of any evil (s)he did to me and God cannot, doesn't that make me a more loving Father than God?" Don't we expect God to, at the very least, have the capability to match our level of love for our own children.

Now ponder this, If God can throw me into hell to justify His sense of justice and honor and all that (the typical nonsense ET'ers throw about about God being a God of love but also a God of justice) and I can go into hell without cursing God for what I perceive to be the grossest form of injustice done to me, doesn't that make me a better person than God. I mean, here is God passing the worst sentence imaginable on me and I go stoically without a word. Is God really going to demonstrate in from of His entire creation that His cursing me while I do not curse Him in return makes me a better person than Him?

I spent years, and continue spending years searching for the truth to whether ET is real or not. So have millions of Christians and all we've got for our troubles are calloused fingers from endlessly pecking the keyboard searching out any information we could stumble on. Doesn't that count for something before God if He going to withhold the real truth from all of us? The Bible supports three positions equally (universalism, annihilation, and eternal torment) so how are we to know?

Logically, eternal torment simply fails.
1. how could God eternally condemn His children who spent their lives searching out His ways and truths?
2. how could a just, loving God condemn 98% of His children to eternal torment simply because they didn't or couldn't find the truth about Jesus?

The stock answer is usually the diatribe concocted in the Dark Ages, "God is infinite, therefore sin must be infinite, therefore sin must be punished infinitely because it is an infinite offense against an infinite God."

I mean who in their right mind can buy into that sort of convoluted reasoning except they are looking for reasons to exclude most of humanity for their own purely selfish reasons ("The last person I want to see in heaven is that guy who insulted me many years ago. It gladdens my heart knowing he's unsaved and on his way to hell") You laugh, but a number of psychologists will tell you that's exactly what's going on in the minds of a good percentage of people who believe in eternal torment.

One last thing to ponder: Jesus Himself said to never return evil for evil but always return good for evil. Now if God instructs us to do that but He Himself cannot do the same thing when we are judged, isn't He instructing us to do something He's incapable of doing?
Thanks for the response. I don't claim to know it all (most of the time) and I hope you're right. I'm going by what the bible says, but honestly I haven't studied it all that well.

You bring up people that are glad some are going to hell and say I may laugh at that notion. I can tell you that this described me when I first became a Christian, so it's not hard for me to believe at all. I used to see someone that I disliked or that did me wrong and think "my comfort is that you're going to hell." That sounds terrible and it is, but it's the truth. Thankfully I don't think like that now.

You have good points and here is something else to ponder....what if I have a loved one that isn't a Christian? Am I going to be in heaven thinking about a child, spouse, parent or sibling that's in hell, in eternal torment? How am I going to enjoy heaven? The bible says that He will wipe away all our tears. Does that mean that He makes us forget that person in hell? (I heard a pastor say this once.)

Then I have sat and thought about how long eternity is. Never ending. And to think of someone burning like that forever is almost more than one can bear.

I don't have all the answers, but I just have to trust in Him. I know He's good.

I have a pastor friend who officiated at the funeral of a congregation members son. The son had walking in front of a train and committed suicide. The mother asked my friend where her son was. What do you say to someone like that? "Your son is in hell"? He told her he was in the hands of a loving God. I would not want to answer that question.
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