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Ro 5:19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners,
Ro 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned—
Note in vs. 19 it says the "the many" were sinners. In verse 12 Paul makes it plain that death comes because of sin, this is why all eventually died, but doesn't use the expression "the many" but he just simply says ALL.
One has to consider the larger context of Romans from verse 12 onward and the role the two Adams played.
In Romans 5:12, Paul chose pas(tes) meaning all, the whole, when explaining the fall of mankind.
In Romans 5:19, For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous. Here Paul uses oi polloi (the many) instead of simply polloi (many).
Many say that in Romans 5:19a oi polloi (the many) means all, but in 5:19b oi polloi (the many) means the justified.
In August Tholuck's Exposition of St. Paul's Epistle to the Romans the following is concluded:
Quote:
The very use of the article with polloi shows that the pastes are here contrasted.....
Last edited by gonpostal; 09-15-2013 at 11:42 AM..
So which is it? Did Jesus give His life a ransom for many[His "Elect"], or did He give His life a ransom for all?
Expected dodges:
1. you don't even believe in the scriptures so why are you even asking?
2. you're ignoring the larger context of what matthew and paul were trying to say, but of course that is what you always do
3. you're a backslidden heretic and we don't communicate with heretics
3. similar evasions of head-on confrontations explaining the discrepancy.
I personally side with Paul. Jesus gave His life a ransom for all and this will be testified in due time. The time is not now because there is so much rife, infighting and backbiting among Christians over fundamentals issues like this and many others:
But in due time 2 Corinthians 5:18-19 will come shining through like the brightest beacon of light the world has ever seen:
This is why I always mention the word context. The context here is this: Jesus died for everyone in the world (the "all" mentioned by Paul) and the "many" mentioned by Jesus refers to everyone who chooses to believe in Him. Just as Adam had a choice in the beginning so does every soul on Earth now have a choice to choose Jesus or believe Him to be a lie by rejecting Him.
In English "many" tends to mean "lots but not all" but in the bible "many" does not imply fewer than all.
Romans 5:18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. 19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
Yes, exactly. Many means "a lot". It does not mean "not all".
I wasn't aware Christians were fighting over these verses, but I'll take your word for it. I learn something new daily.
Many throw in Mark 10:45, though it is but for one word the same as Matthew 20:28. I think non-believers use these three verses as proof The Bible contradicts itself.
The way I look at it Jesus is available for all but onlymany will take Him up on it. I'm just glad He didn't say few or twenty five. I don't see the contradiction. So, I don't have to choose sides.
You mentioned 2 Corinthians 5:18-19. Are you suggesting 2 Corinthians 5:10 does not apply? Just checking, thrillobyte.
It gets even worse because there are verses that say 'few' ie. many are called but few are chosen.
So which is it? Did Jesus give His life a ransom for many[His "Elect"], or did He give His life a ransom for all?
Expected dodges:
1. you don't even believe in the scriptures so why are you even asking?
2. you're ignoring the larger context of what matthew and paul were trying to say, but of course that is what you always do
3. you're a backslidden heretic and we don't communicate with heretics
3. similar evasions of head-on confrontations explaining the discrepancy.
I personally side with Paul. Jesus gave His life a ransom for all and this will be testified in due time. The time is not now because there is so much rife, infighting and backbiting among Christians over fundamentals issues like this and many others:
But in due time 2 Corinthians 5:18-19 will come shining through like the brightest beacon of light the world has ever seen:
The solution here is quite easy. Many can refer to all.
There are many people in the world. See?
So which is it? Did Jesus give His life a ransom for many[His "Elect"], or did He give His life a ransom for all?
Expected dodges:
1. you don't even believe in the scriptures so why are you even asking?
2. you're ignoring the larger context of what matthew and paul were trying to say, but of course that is what you always do
3. you're a backslidden heretic and we don't communicate with heretics
3. similar evasions of head-on confrontations explaining the discrepancy.
I personally side with Paul. Jesus gave His life a ransom for all and this will be testified in due time. The time is not now because there is so much rife, infighting and backbiting among Christians over fundamentals issues like this and many others:
But in due time 2 Corinthians 5:18-19 will come shining through like the brightest beacon of light the world has ever seen:
"No one can redeem the life of another or give to God a ransom for them." - Psalms 49:7
Jesus can't serve as a blood sacrifice because God never Needed one.
What God asks for is for us to willfully repent with the intention of improving for the better.
Remember Narrow is the Way of Life and Few shall ever find it.
So Few shall move onto paradise.
Thrilobite: Just read your last comment and understand your question. Lutheran theology, and I think the Bible makes this clear explains this in a simple way. You have to think of Justification as a two part formula. Jesus death pays for all sins, that is for all sins anyone anywhere ever committed. That means it even pays for Hitlers and Stalins sins. All sins. This is what we Lutherans refer to as objective justification. So in essence, all people are walking around fearful of the law for no reason, because Jesus already paid for their sins. Others are trying to keep the law, hoping to fulfill the laws demands, which is foolish, because Jesus already fulfilled the law. It is called objective because Jesus and his ministry and work is an objective historical reality.
The problem for the unbelievers is not their sin then, but their unbelief, their rejection and rebellion of God. So in essence, they don't go to hell for their sins, except for the sin of unbelief. Faith receives what God gives. This is how we can be saved by faith and only saved by faith, because Jesus, His death and resurrection is the only act that can fulfill the law. And so faith is called subjective Justification. Faith is subjective, only in the heart. But you put together the objective and subjective and now you have salvation, justification etc.
It is good that you're paying attention to what is written and questioning it instead of just glossing over it...I would side with Yeshua because Paul did not die for our sins...
You know, if you were familiar with the writings of Paul you would no full well he did not mean "ALL" of mankind in any respect. Paul's writings over and over and over again teach the exclusivity of God's people. "Chosen before the foundation of the world, adopted, called etc. It's 100% Pauline teaching that John Calvin well understood when he wrote his Institutes of the Christian Religion that all reformed believers accept as the truth.
The first rule of understanding the bible is to use the known to attempt to understand the unknown. In many cases you still will not understand the unknown but you will know for sure what it isn't!
What Paul obviously meant here was, all who were called of God, all who have been adopted into God's family, all who were predestined as the children of God and all who have been chosen by God for his special grace.
I don't think there is one single word in the bible that causes so many to misunderstand and to believe the opposite of what the bible teaches all the way through as that troublesome little word "ALL".
It is ALL who believe in Him. It is repeated some 200 times in the Bible.
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