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I was hoping lovesMountains would address my question. She and I used to be thick as thieves once upon a time but it seems she has disowned me, presumably because of some rash comments I made in the past.
Well, why don't you explain it to me, loves, as it seems I am not enlightened. I'm just quoting a guy who identifies himself as a BAC, whose website explains it all in extremely graphic detail. I was actually being nice in my description of hell compared to his.
And truthfully, no matter how you dice the onion it's still going to make you cry because what he says is true, according to the Bible. It has to be. One unrepentant sin is enough to banish you from God's presence because sin is sin no matter how tiny and God cannot be in the presence of unrepentant sin, that's a fact.
Jesus always spoke in a way that brought man to the end of himself. Everyone knew God's law in those days, but they didn't know just how deep it goes. It wasn't until Jesus came on the scene that people learned if you break 1 law, you've broken them all and if you just so much as look at a woman lustfully you have committed adultery with her. Also, if you have hate in your heart you have murdered the person you hate. All of this was never written on stone, yet Jesus comes to Earth and says all of this that no one ever knew or considered even knowing the law. The more of the lack of perfection and righteousness men knew about themselves the more they would come to realize they need a savior.
The covenant of grace does not bend just as the covenant of the law did not bend. Under the law, God dealt with sin in the most severe way. But under grace, God says your sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more, for Jesus' sake. Jesus brought in everlasting righteousness and anyone who believes in Him for their salvation receives this everlasting righteousness. No sin can undo what Jesus has done. But it is only when you realize you're a sinner and need a savior that you can receive this free gift of everlasting righteousness. If a person learns that even the smallest hate towards someone in their heart is enough to make them guilty of murder and condemn them to eternal punishment, then I think that person will realize they do indeed need a savior and will call upon the name of the Lord.
All who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. (Romans 10:13)
If a person learns that even the smallest hate towards someone in their heart is enough to make them guilty of murder and condemn them to eternal punishment, then I think that person will realize they do indeed need a savior and will call upon the name of the Lord.
If punishment were eternal, then the word Aidios would have been used; not aionion.
Even Jesus, himself, never used the word for eternal in conjunction with punishment.
(BTW - Punishment equates to chastisement or correction)
Jesus always spoke in a way that brought man to the end of himself. Everyone knew God's law in those days, but they didn't know just how deep it goes. It wasn't until Jesus came on the scene that people learned if you break 1 law, you've broken them all and if you just so much as look at a woman lustfully you have committed adultery with her. Also, if you have hate in your heart you have murdered the person you hate. All of this was never written on stone, yet Jesus comes to Earth and says all of this that no one ever knew or considered even knowing the law. The more of the lack of perfection and righteousness men knew about themselves the more they would come to realize they need a savior.
The covenant of grace does not bend just as the covenant of the law did not bend. Under the law, God dealt with sin in the most severe way. But under grace, God says your sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more, for Jesus' sake. Jesus brought in everlasting righteousness and anyone who believes in Him for their salvation receives this everlasting righteousness. No sin can undo what Jesus has done. But it is only when you realize you're a sinner and need a savior that you can receive this free gift of everlasting righteousness. If a person learns that even the smallest hate towards someone in their heart is enough to make them guilty of murder and condemn them to eternal punishment, then I think that person will realize they do indeed need a savior and will call upon the name of the Lord.
All who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved. (Romans 10:13)
I guess lovesMountains has disowned me for good. The only remark she's made to me in three months is to reprimand me. Oh well, some fences can never be mended.
Anyway, onward and upward.
I get what you're saying about the overall principles that Jesus came to correct about the imperfections contained within the Law, romans. There's a lot more going on here than meets the eye and it's not black and white as I seem to be presenting it.
I've read that the Law as given to Moses had warped and morphed over the intervening 1500 years between Moses and Jesus, which is why Jesus had to come when He did, not only to die to save man, but to make straight what had been bent crooked by the Pharisees and Scribes. Which is why Jesus never said, "The Law says...but I say to you...". That would have implied that the Law was in need of adjustment. Instead Jesus said, "You have heard it said...but I say to you...." which suggests "You are hearing the law presented this way, but it was never intended to be presented to you this way, which is why I now say to you how the Law should be read to you..." Jesus' particular choice of words, "You have heard it said..." gives credence to the hypothesis that the way we now quote the commandments is not how God had originally given them to Moses. If that were the case, then prior to Jesus it would have been perfectly okay to look upon a woman with lust and not have it be adultery of the heart, simply because in Jesus' time it wasn't part of the 7th commandment. Perhaps the original commandment read, "You shall not commit adultery, nor shall you look upon a woman with lust for this also is adultery of the heart."
But I'm digressing. Perhaps the fellow I'm quoting also has missed the bigger picture. Yes, there are larger matters which are gray as you are pointing out, yet there are still sins that are purely black and white. One of them is "Die without Jesus, go to hell for eternity". No one will argue with that, except maybe universalists. It doesn't get more black and white than that.
So let's take a look at my question and try to get to an uncomplicated answer (if such a thing is possible): if I have confessed all my sins and then get into a fight with someone, lose my temper and call him all sorts of names in anger, fully comprehending that I am sinning because the Holy Spirit is whispering in my ear, "This is sin" and I ignore the HS because I am flush with anger; and the guy pulls a gun and shoots me dead and I die with unrepentant sin, question: do I still go to heaven or do I go to hell? Simple yes or no will help.
Think of it. All you have to do according to traditional Christianity is call a person "Fool" twice without repenting of it--nothing else--and you are headed for the Lake of Fire, which burns hotter than the hottest lake of molten lava, for all eternity; suffering the most intense excruciating pain imaginable, which never ceases throughout time without end; God's fierce wrath upon you forever and ever.
I don't think that's traditional Christianity. I think you're creating a straw-man.
The Catholic Church differentiates sins as either venial or mortal. If you die in a state of venial sin you do not go to hell, the Catholic Church says. If one dies in a state of mortal sin that is another matter.
The question is "what is a mortal sin?" I've never heard or understood calling someone a fool once or more as being a mortal sin in the eyes of the Church.
As for Protestants, many of them say once saved always saved. So, your example would not reflect them as believing calling someone a fool twice sends them to hell.
And in terms of combined population size I think you can call Catholicism and Protestantism as "traditional Christianity" for this purpose.
I think its good to have some healthy fear of hell. For those persons that recently gunned down 12 or 13 people in Chicago, one of which was 3 year old I believe, a fear of hell, and reflecting on the possibility of being damned eternally to hell, would have been a good thing for one or more of them as they began to step outside to do their deed.
I don't think that's traditional Christianity. I think you're creating a straw-man.
The Catholic Church differentiates sins as either venial or mortal. If you die in a state of venial sin you do not go to hell, the Catholic Church says. If one dies in a state of mortal sin that is another matter.
The question is "what is a mortal sin?" I've never heard or understood calling someone a fool once or more as being a mortal sin in the eyes of the Church.
As for Protestants, many of them say once saved always saved. So, your example would not reflect them as believing calling someone a fool twice sends them to hell.
And in terms of combined population size I think you can call Catholicism and Protestantism as "traditional Christianity" for this purpose.
I think its good to have some healthy fear of hell. For those persons that recently gunned down 12 or 13 people in Chicago, one of which was 3 year old I believe, a fear of hell, and reflecting on the possibility of being damned eternally to hell, would have been a good thing for one or more of them as they began to step outside to do their deed.
I was raised Catholic, so I know the concept of mortal and venial sin. If one said "Fool" purely as an emotional reaction, to be forgotten immediately afterwards that would be venial. If one said it with pure hatred and intent on doing serious harm, that would be mortal.
But I was referring to the traditional Protestant take. Here's my example again:
If I have confessed all my sins and then get into a fight with someone, lose my temper and call him all sorts of names in anger, fully comprehending that I am sinning because the Holy Spirit is whispering in my ear, "This is sin" and I ignore the HS because I am flush with anger; and the guy pulls a gun and shoots me dead and I die with unrepentant sin, question: do I still go to heaven or do I go to hell? Simple yes or no will help.
Well, why don't you explain it to me, loves, as it seems I am not enlightened. I'm just quoting a guy who identifies himself as a BAC, whose website explains it all in extremely graphic detail. I was actually being nice in my description of hell compared to his.
And truthfully, no matter how you dice the onion it's still going to make you cry because what he says is true, according to the Bible. It has to be. One unrepentant sin is enough to banish you from God's presence because sin is sin no matter how tiny and God cannot be in the presence of unrepentant sin, that's a fact.
Have you considered that maybe the problem is not with God but with trying to find life in the bible? I know you have considered it - but some have not, nor will they.
Here's something else to ponder. Christ called others fools a little later in Matthew. Hmmmm.
The bible also says he descended into hell.
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