Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
If we aren't supposed to call any man on earth father, why do some religions practice this? They are called "Father such and such." This scripture does not mean biological father, as I think we can all agree on that. What is your understanding of Matt 23:9? And callnoman your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Why do some religions call their pastor, bishop, etc "father".
Why did Paul call himself Father over many believers.
What a dilemma.
What did you call your father? Papa? That's what the RCC call the pope, is Papa. (transliterated)
Why did Paul call himself Father over many believers.
What a dilemma.
What did you call your father? Papa? That's what the RCC call the pope, is Papa. (transliterated)
Paul noted that he had been responsible for bringing many believers to Christ, "fathering" them in that sense, but he never indicated that they should call him such nor grant him such authority over their lives. The point is not about an indication of love and/or biological relationship, it is about authority and subservience.
Paul noted that he had been responsible for bringing many believers to Christ, "fathering" them in that sense, but he never indicated that they should call him such nor grant him such authority over their lives. The point is not about an indication of love and/or biological relationship, it is about authority and subservience.
14 I do not write these things to shame you, but to admonish you as my beloved children. 15 For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel. 16 Therefore I exhort you, be imitators of me. (NASB 1 Cor 4
6 They love the place of honor at banquets and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 and respectful greetings in the market places, and being called Rabbi by men. 8 But do not be called Rabbi; for One is your Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 Do not be called [b]leaders; for One is your Leader, that is, Christ. (NASB MATT 23
Ummmmm seems the same thing to me. Paul appears to be violating the intent, the context and the words of Christ.
My comment was to indicate there was more to the question than just the obvious, as Paul pretty much spit on the obvious.
Matthew ch 23 1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men’s shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted. (New Testament | Matthew 23:1–12 kjv)
I only have a minute or so to respond. I’ve never considered this potential issue before, but assume that Jesus was NOT referring to the use of "πατηρ"/"Father", as one’s literal progenitor (e.g. my “dad”) but was referring to the common usage of πατηρ/Father as a title of respect or honor.
The reason I assume this (I could be wrong) is that the context of Jesus’ statement was made inside the context of and in reference to the abuse of honor and power by those who have religious position. One of the manifestations of this pride was the love these individuals had for greetings and titles that accompanied such positions. They loved not only certain rooms and seats, but to be greeted in elevated terms such as “rabbi”, “master” and “Father”. The Christians however, were to view each other as equals and themselves as servants to others rather than to seek to elevate themselves in the same was as the scribes and the pharisees were doing.
Though the terms “rabbi” and “master”, the mis-use of, which Jesus warns against, were well known titles of respect, we forget that “father” was another term of respect as well. (rabbis and master also have proper uses as well - I am speaking of the inappropriate pride that comes to certain individuals with certain uses of these terms)
The early Papyri of the period give us many examples of the use of this term as a term of elevated “respect”. Oxychyrus Papri give us the example where a man refers to two other men as “Father” while just three sentences later referring to his literal father, thus giving an excellent juxtaposition of the uses of the term. Apollonius, for example, addresses his eldest brother a “father” / πατηρ in the same use as a term of respect or honor as the apparent head of their family (the papyri does not indicate what happened to the actual father) (P. Par 60:3) Even the Emporer Claudius was designated “ πατηρ πατριδος ” (roughly, the “father of the Fatherland”).
Though I could be in error on this point, I assume that is it a specific mis-use of the title "father" that is referred to by Jesus in this specific case. I do not think the proper “honoring” of ones own “father and mother” by the use of their titles is what Jesus was referring to in this scripture.
Good luck in coming to your own model of what principle and concept Jesus is speaking of in this text.
Clear
φιτωφιω
Last edited by Clear lens; 10-02-2013 at 12:54 PM..
I just noticed Xian Catalyst’ post #33 where Xian quotes the NASB’s translation of 1 Cor 4:15 “15 For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.”
And Xian's resulting conclusion that: “ Paul appears to be violating the intent, the context and the words of Christ. “ and that: “… Paul pretty much spit on the obvious.”
I think that poor NASB translation and lack of personal contextual data may contribute to this erroneous conclusion in this case. For example, the NASB translators are mixing commentary and exegesis with translation in this sentence. The word “Father” / πατηρ does NOT appear in vs 15 after the words “many fathers”. Instead the individuals who created the NASB bible are describing what they think Paul meant to say (not what the greek actually says). Since the word order does not affect this greek point, the word order the NASB used also affected the nuance and meaning. For example, the sentence is just as easily rendered “ For if ye should have thousands of tutors in Christ, yet not many fathers. For in/into Jesus Christ, through the true message/glad tidings I did engender you. “ THIS is the order of the greek text with εγεννησα ("engendered" as the last word in the greek sentence).
The Greek uses the word for "engender", not the specific word for "father" and there are no greek manuscripts which use the word for "Father" / Πατερ to describe what Paul did for these converts in this verse.
Pauls “propogation” or "engendering" or "creation" of converts was not the same use of the misuse of the symbolism of the honorific term "father" as the scribes and the Pharisees in this case. Paul seems to understand clearly, that his converts were engendered into Christ and through the true message rather than his converts being engendered into himself and through his own merits or through his own message.
I do not think Paul violated the intent of Jesus’ teaching in the prior example nor was Paul “spitting on” the concept of giving God and Jesus the honor they deserved.
Well I was sit down and taught something. I should have checked first. But I was quite confident and you know where that can get you.
Thanks C.L. I'll have to look into it and see if I can maintain my position. Seems that may be a bit of a challenge and I'll have to change it. hehe that's twice in one day, I hate days like this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clear lens
I just noticed Xian Catalyst’ post #33 where Xian quotes the NASB’s translation of 1 Cor 4:15 “15 For if you were to have countless tutors in Christ, yet you would not have many fathers, for in Christ Jesus I became your father through the gospel.”
And Xian's resulting conclusion that: “ Paul appears to be violating the intent, the context and the words of Christ. “ and that: “… Paul pretty much spit on the obvious.”
I think that poor NASB translation and lack of personal contextual data may contribute to this erroneous conclusion in this case. For example, the NASB translators are mixing commentary and exegesis with translation in this sentence. The word “Father” / πατηρ does NOT appear in vs 15 after the words “many fathers”. Instead the individuals who created the NASB bible are describing what they think Paul meant to say (not what the greek actually says). Since the word order does not affect this greek point, the word order the NASB used also affected the nuance and meaning. For example, the sentence is just as easily rendered “ For if ye should have thousands of tutors in Christ, yet not many fathers. For in/into Jesus Christ, through the true message/glad tidings I did engender you. “ THIS is the order of the greek text with εγεννησα ("engendered" as the last word in the greek sentence).
The Greek uses the word for "engender", not the specific word for "father" and there are no greek manuscripts which use the word for "Father" / Πατερ to describe what Paul did for these converts in this verse.
Pauls “propogation” or "engendering" or "creation" of converts was not the same use of the misuse of the symbolism of the honorific term "father" as the scribes and the Pharisees in this case. Paul seems to understand clearly, that his converts were engendered into Christ and through the true message rather than his converts being engendered into himself and through his own merits or through his own message.
I do not think Paul violated the intent of Jesus’ teaching in the prior example nor was Paul “spitting on” the concept of giving God and Jesus the honor they deserved.
“Thanks C.L. I'll have to look into it and see if I can maintain my position. Seems that may be a bit of a challenge and I'll have to change it. hehe that's twice in one day, I hate days like this. “Xian Catalyst # 36
Hi Xian : I actually know the feeling since I make plenty of my own errors.
I have come to believe that our challenge is NOT to "maintain a position" but instead to sincerely TRY to find out where our tentative models are incorrect (we all have errors in data and our understanding) and to sincerely SEEK to make corrective changes to our current models of understanding (instead of trying to maintain our tentative models).
In any case, good luck with your spiritual journey in this life Xian.
“Thanks C.L. I'll have to look into it and see if I can maintain my position. Seems that may be a bit of a challenge and I'll have to change it. hehe that's twice in one day, I hate days like this. “Xian Catalyst # 36
Hi Xian : I actually know the feeling since I make plenty of my own errors.
I have come to believe that our challenge is NOT to "maintain a position" but instead to sincerely TRY to find out where our tentative models are incorrect (we all have errors in data and our understanding) and to sincerely SEEK to make corrective changes to our current models of understanding (instead of trying to maintain our tentative models).
In any case, good luck with your spiritual journey in this life Xian.
Clear
Amen
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
