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The rapture of the church is part of God's program for the church. The Tribulation is part of God's program for Israel. The church has no part in the Tribulation.
Actually, the Secret Rapture and seven year tribulation theory was incorporated into the programs of men by men.
The rapture terminates the dispensation of the church. And while the church age is called the dispensation or stewardship of God's grace in Eph. 3:2, God has always been a God of grace even though Israel was under the law.
Saints does not equal church. Believers of all dispensations are called saints. Old Testament believers were saints. But they were not the church. In Daniel 7:18 and 7:21 the word 'Qaddish' - 'saints' refers to Israel. Tribulational believers are also saints, but they are not the church.
As shown at the bottom of post #15 the church is not destined for the wrath of the day of the Lord which begins with the Tribulation.
The first resurrection refers to the resurrection of all believers which occurs in stages, as opposed to the second resurrection which refers to the resurrection of all unbelievers at the end of the Millennium.
The first resurrection is in three stages:
Stage one: The resurrection of Jesus Himself who is the firstfruits. 1 Cor. 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. 23] 'But each in his own order; Christ the first fruits, after that those who at Christ's at His coming.
Stage two: The resurrection of the church age believer at the pre-tribulational rapture of the church. Jesus comes for the church prior to the Tribulation. He does not set foot on the earth at this coming, but to the clouds in the air (1 Thess. 4:16-17).
Stage three: The resurrection of Tribulational martyrs when Christ returns at the end of the Tribulation (Rev. 20:4), as well as all Old Testament saints.
Matthew 24:13 ''But the one who endures to the end, he will be saved.'', to which you referred, refers to the fact that Tribulational believers who survive to the end of the Tribulation will be delivered or saved to go into the Millennial Kingdom in their mortal bodies. This is in contrast with Tribulational martyrs who will be resurrected prior to the beginning of the Millennium. Every believer cannot be resurrected when Christ returns or there would be no mortal men with which to go into the Millennial kingdom. Millennial believers probably will not die in the Millennium, and therefore will not be resurrected as such, but will have their mortal bodies transformed into bodies of immortality and incorruptibility in the same way that Church Age believers who are alive on the earth at the time of the pre-tribulational rapture will have their bodies transformed, while those Church Age believers who have died will be resurrected (1 Cor. 15:50-54).
Matthew 24:36-41, is not the rapture of the church, but is the return of Christ at the Second Advent. These are two different events at two different times. The ones taken in Matthew 24:40-41, see also Luke 17:34-37, are not believers who have been raptured, but are unbelievers who are taken away in judgment and sent to the eternal fire mentioned in Matthew 25:41. John the Baptist prophesied this in Matthew 3:12 - ''His winnowing fork is in His hand, and He will gather His wheat into the barn, but will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.'' See also Malachi 4:1 regarding this. At the judgment of the nations mentioned in Matthew 25:32-46 which will take place in the valley of Jehoshaphat as per Joel 3:1-2 Tribulational Gentile survivers will be judged. Gentile believers (characterized by their willingness to help the Jews during the Tribulation) will go into the Millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies. Tribulational Gentile unbelievers (characterized by their unwillingness to help the Jews during the Tribulation) will be ordered into the eternal fire as per Matthew 25:41.
As for 2 Thess. 2:1-3, that is Paul's assurance to the Thessalonians that they were not in the day of the Lord as some had led them to believe. Paul had previously taught them (1 Thess. 4 and 5) that the church would not go through the day of the Lord which begins with the Tribulation, but would be delivered from it. But after Paul had taught that, they had received false messages (2 Thess. 2:2) to the effect that the day of the Lord was upon them. Paul told them not to be deceived and went on to tell them that the day of the Lord would not come until the man of lawlessness is revealed, and that he was restrained from appearing until that restrained was removed. The appearance of the man of lawlessness is restrained by the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the Church Age believer. When the church is removed from the earth at the rapture, the Holy Spirit will no longer restrain the appearance of the man of lawlessness who is the prince who is to come mentioned in Daniel 9:26-27. Daniel's 70th week in which the Tribulation occurs begins with the signing of a convenant with the many by the man of lawlessness (Daniel 9:27). While the Holy Spirit will remove His restraint at the rapture of the church, He Himself will still be present since He is omnipresent.
The rapture of the church is part of God's program for the church. The Tribulation is part of God's program for Israel. The church has no part in the Tribulation.
If the dispensation of church and grace are the same, than the everlasting gospel (Rev 14:6) must be different from the one that Paul preached, if grace ends 7 years before the end. What dispensation is the 7 year Tribulation?
The church is the assembly of the saints in the OT, NT and in heaven, the true Israel of God in contrast to the fleshly Israel.
The wrath of God is the final judgement, which comes with the 2. coming of Christ. Rev 11:8 makes it clear, the wrath of God, the Resurrection, the Reward (Rapture) and the Sudden Destruction they all go together.
This is also the Day of the Lord, the 2. coming, one day with evening, when it gets light (Zech 14:7). My Dake`s bible, which is Pre-trib, calls it the end of the age and Jesus says that the harvest (Rapture) is the end of the age (Mat 13)
Paul gives us the order of the resurrections in 1. Cor 15: 20-23. He knows about the Rapture and there is only one First Resurrection. It is the main one and the first of two resurrections, 1000 years between. 1. Cor 15: 51+52 confirms it: all will be changed at the same time, at the last and not the first trumpet, no First Resurrection in stages.
Mat 24:13 Jesus speaks to His disciples, that includes all saints, not only the Tribulation saints. The OT tells us that only few go into the millennium. Not every one is raptured or killed, some go with their mortal body into the millennium.
I agree that the Rapture and the coming back as an army are two events, but where it says that there are 7 years between? The bible says that the Day of the Lord is one day (Zech 14:7), that refers to a 24 hour day. After the Rapture there is eternal time (1 day=1000 years). That means going to Heaven, Wedding, reward and coming back as army would take 2 seconds our time.
The promises belong to the Jews. When fleshly Israel are grafted in, that is the resurrection of the dead. Before there is no Rapture and no Jewish wedding in Heaven without the Jews. Salvation is of the Jews. God`s plan is a new man out of Jew and Gentile. No separate plan, they go together. Gentiles are partakers in the promises of God.
There is no church age ending 7 years before the end in the bible, it is an assumption, nor is there a secret 2. coming or a First Resurrection in stages or a different plan for the church and Israel, the explanation for 2. Thess 2:1-3 is also made up. Paul refers to the 2. coming and the Rapture, not to the Tribulation. He says that the coming of the Lord and the Rapture will not happen, before two events, the falling away and the revealing of the Antichrist. The "he" in verse 7 must according to the Greek refer to a noun and the Holy Spirit is not mentioned, it is the Antichrist, who is coming (out of the way is not in the Greek).
If the dispensation of church and grace are the same, than the everlasting gospel (Rev 14:6) must be different from the one that Paul preached, if grace ends 7 years before the end. What dispensation is the 7 year Tribulation?
The everlasting gospel preached by the angels in Rev. 14:6-9 is indeed a different gospel than the gospel preached by Paul. The angels are not speaking of salvation or of grace, or of the kingdom, but of the hour of judgment which has come. This gospel is a message of God's judgment and righteousness. Not of eternal salvation. Clarence Larkin writes;
It is good news to Israel, and all who are passing through the ''fires of judgment,'' because it declares that their troubles will soon end in the judgment and destruction of Antichrist. [The Book of Revelation, Rev. Clarence Larkin, p. 134.]
The Tribulation is the last 7 years remaining to the dispensation of Israel which was interrupted for the calling out of the body of Christ which is the church. The Church age is an intercalation. The dispensation of Israel was put on hold at the 483rd year of Daniel's 490 year (70 weeks of years) prophecy. There is still one more week of years (7 years) which is to come in the dispensation of Israel. This is also called the time of Jacob's trouble in Jeremiah 30:7.
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The church is the assembly of the saints in the OT, NT and in heaven, the true Israel of God in contrast to the fleshly Israel.
Zur, The New Testament church did not exist prior to the Day of Pentecost 50 days after the resurrection of Christ. When Jesus said to Peter in Matthew 16:18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it., it was still future. The church did not exist at that point. The church is a new creation - 2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. The church - a new creation is formed by the baptism of the Holy Spirit in which all church age believers, whether Jew or Gentile, are brought together in one body in which the distinction between Jew and Gentile disappears. The Church age believer is seen by God as neither Jew or Gentile, but as Church - a new creation. Gal. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
After the church has been raptured, Jewish believers during the Tribulation will be a part of Israel, while Gentile believers will still be considered Gentiles by God. Neither group will be a part of the church.
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The wrath of God is the final judgement, which comes with the 2. coming of Christ. Rev 11:8 makes it clear, the wrath of God, the Resurrection, the Reward (Rapture) and the Sudden Destruction they all go together.
I think you meant to reference some other verse instead of Rev. 11:8. But the Tribulation which is Daniel's 70th week (7 years) precedes the Second Advent of Christ. And as has been shown, the rapture precedes the Tribulation.
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This is also the Day of the Lord, the 2. coming, one day with evening, when it gets light (Zech 14:7). My Dake`s bible, which is Pre-trib, calls it the end of the age and Jesus says that the harvest (Rapture) is the end of the age (Mat 13)
The Day of the Lord refers to any period of direct divine judgment and includes not only the Tribulation, but the Millennial kingdom in which Jesus, who is God will be ruling and judging from the throne of David in Jerusalem, and includes the destruction of the present heavens and earth. 2 Peter 3:10 speaks of the passing away of the heavens as the Day of the Lord. This occurs after the Millennium has ended.
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Paul gives us the order of the resurrections in 1. Cor 15: 20-23. He knows about the Rapture and there is only one First Resurrection. It is the main one and the first of two resurrections, 1000 years between. 1. Cor 15: 51+52 confirms it: all will be changed at the same time, at the last and not the first trumpet, no First Resurrection in stages.
Yes, there is only one first resurrection. But it is in stages. As already shown, Jesus is the firstfruits of those resurrected. He is included in the order of resurrection in 1 Cor. 15:23, and He was resurrected some 2000 years ago which means that His resurrection was a different stage of the first resurrection.
All Church age believers will be changed in a moment of time at the rapture. Only the church is in view in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53.
Once again, Paul in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5 made it clear that the church is not destined to go through the Day of the Lord with reference to the Tribulation. And also again, in 2 Thessalonians 2 Paul told the Thessalonians not to be deceived by rumors that they were in the Day of the Lord as some had taught but that the Day of the Lord could not come until the man of lawlessness was revealed, and that he could not appear until the restraining influence upon him was removed. And that restraining influence is the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit in the church age believer.
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Mat 24:13 Jesus speaks to His disciples, that includes all saints, not only the Tribulation saints. The OT tells us that only few go into the millennium. Not every one is raptured or killed, some go with their mortal body into the millennium.
The church is not found anywhere in Matthew chapters 24 and 25. The events spoken of by Christ in Matthew 24 are prophetic and have to do with the Tribulation. Matthew 24:13 refers specifically to Tribulational believers who survive to the end of the Tribulation going into the Millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies. While Tribulational believers are eternally saved, the salvation being spoken of in Matthew 24:13 refers to physical deliverance.
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I agree that the Rapture and the coming back as an army are two events, but where it says that there are 7 years between? The bible says that the Day of the Lord is one day (Zech 14:7), that refers to a 24 hour day. After the Rapture there is eternal time (1 day=1000 years). That means going to Heaven, Wedding, reward and coming back as army would take 2 seconds our time.
There may in fact be more than seven years between the rapture of the church and the Second Advent of Christ since the rapture does not begin the Tribulation. The event which begins the Tribulation is the signing of the peace treaty with Israel by the man of lawlessness. And that could occurs perhaps even years after the church is raptured.
But how do we know the Tribulation will be 7 years? Since I already explained that in both post #7 and 15 of this thread, I will refer you back to it.
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The promises belong to the Jews. When fleshly Israel are grafted in, that is the resurrection of the dead. Before there is no Rapture and no Jewish wedding in Heaven without the Jews. Salvation is of the Jews. God`s plan is a new man out of Jew and Gentile. No separate plan, they go together. Gentiles are partakers in the promises of God.
As I said earlier in this post, the church is a new creation in which both Jewish and Gentile believers are brought together in one body called the church by the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This is unique to this dispensation. It did not exist prior to the Day of Pentecost 50 days after the resurrection of Christ, and it will not exist after the church has been raptured.
The church is not Israel. It is a new creation which is being formed during the time between the Day of Pentecost and the rapture of the church. Refer to earlier in the post.
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There is no church age ending 7 years before the end in the bible, it is an assumption, nor is there a secret 2. coming or a First Resurrection in stages or a different plan for the church and Israel, the explanation for 2. Thess 2:1-3 is also made up. Paul refers to the 2. coming and the Rapture, not to the Tribulation. He says that the coming of the Lord and the Rapture will not happen, before two events, the falling away and the revealing of the Antichrist. The "he" in verse 7 must according to the Greek refer to a noun and the Holy Spirit is not mentioned, it is the Antichrist, who is coming (out of the way is not in the Greek).
Yes, there is a Church age, and we are in it. And as the general outline of Revelation 1:19 shows, the Church age precedes the Tribulation.
Rev. 1:19 ''Therefore write the things which you have seen,'' refers to the things shown to John in Revelation chapter one.
''and the things which are'' refers to the events of this present Church age which is represented by the seven churches of Asia which are addressed in chapters 2 and 3.
''and the things which will take place after theses things.'', refer to the events of the Tribulation and the things which will follow the Tribulation.
As that general outline shows, the Tribulation follows the Church age which means that the church will not go through the Tribulation.
And no, the explanation for 2 Thess. 2:1-3 is not made up. Paul was not telling the Thessalonians not to be worried about Christ returning and being raptured. He was assuring them that the Day of the Lord (the Tribulation) had not come and that they would not go through it. As pointed out, in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5 the context shows that the church is to be raptured before the Day of the Lord, and that the Lord has not destined us (the church) for wrath.
As for 2 Thess. 2:7 which does indeed say 'out of (Ek-ἐκ) the way or midst (mesou - μέσου)', the 'he' who is mentioned can only refer to the Holy Spirit. There is no one else who can restrain the appearance of the antichrist.
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way [NASB]
FOR-THE MYSTERY ALREADY IS WORKING - OF LAWLESSNESS, ONLY [THERE IS]ONE HOLDING [IT]BACK JUST NOW UNTIL OUT OF [THE]MIDST(WAY) HE IS GONE. [The Greek/English Interlinear New Testament UBS 4th edition, Nestle-Aland 26th edition]
Verse 8 then goes on to say;
Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; [NASB]
As the Bible Knowledge Commentary states;
The Holy Spirit of God is the only Person with sufficient (supernatural) power to do this restraining. Some object to this being the Holy Spirit on the grounds that to katechon in 2 Thessalonians 2:6 is neuter (''what is holding back''). But this is no problem for two reasons: (a) The neuter is sometimes used of the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26; 16:13-14). (b) In 2 Thessalonians 2:7 the words are masculine: ho katechón,the one who . . . holds it back. How does He do it? Through Christians, whom He indwells and through whom He works in society to hold back the swelling tide of lawless living. How will He be taken out of the way? When the church leaves the earth in the Rapture, the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way in the sense that His unique lawlessness-restraining ministry through God's people will be removed (cf. Gen. 6:3). The removal of the Restrainer must obviously precede the day of the Lord. Paul's reasoning is thus a strong argument for the pre-tribulational Rapture; the Thessalonians were not in the Great Tribulation because the Rapture had not yet occurred. [The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, p. 719]
Last edited by Michael Way; 09-30-2013 at 03:57 PM..
If I follow Mike correctly: Christ suspends in the air, raptures the church and leaves the rest of civilization to undergo tribulation, Christ now comes again in the Mount of Olives with his church to reign for 1000yrs, and then satan is allowed into the world again and finally Satan is defeated and Christ assumes eternal rule!
If this sums up your believe, I am confused. Seriously. Why would Christ subject us to this convoluted way of coming when it was written that he would come a 2nd time? Is it a lack of understanding? Why can't the most powerful being in the universe or multiverse establish his kingdom and elliminate sinners without taking folks to the air? The inconsistency in it is a reason to relook it. After the 1000yr reign why is there no rapture to protect the church?
The everlasting gospel preached by the angels in Rev. 14:6-9 is indeed a different gospel than the gospel preached by Paul. The angels are not speaking of salvation or of grace, or of the kingdom, but of the hour of judgment which has come. This gospel is a message of God's judgment and righteousness. Not of eternal salvation. Clarence Larkin writes;
It is good news to Israel, and all who are passing through the ''fires of judgment,'' because it declares that their troubles will soon end in the judgment and destruction of Antichrist. [The Book of Revelation, Rev. Clarence Larkin, p. 134.]
The Tribulation is the last 7 years remaining to the dispensation of Israel which was interrupted for the calling out of the body of Christ which is the church. The Church age is an intercalation. The dispensation of Israel was put on hold at the 483rd year of Daniel's 490 year (70 weeks of years) prophecy. There is still one more week of years (7 years) which is to come in the dispensation of Israel. This is also called the time of Jacob's trouble in Jeremiah 30:7.
Zur, The New Testament church did not exist prior to the Day of Pentecost 50 days after the resurrection of Christ. When Jesus said to Peter in Matthew 16:18 "I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it., it was still future. The church did not exist at that point. The church is a new creation - 2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come. The church - a new creation is formed by the baptism of the Holy Spirit in which all church age believers, whether Jew or Gentile, are brought together in one body in which the distinction between Jew and Gentile disappears. The Church age believer is seen by God as neither Jew or Gentile, but as Church - a new creation. Gal. 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
After the church has been raptured, Jewish believers during the Tribulation will be a part of Israel, while Gentile believers will still be considered Gentiles by God. Neither group will be a part of the church.
I think you meant to reference some other verse instead of Rev. 11:8. But the Tribulation which is Daniel's 70th week (7 years) precedes the Second Advent of Christ. And as has been shown, the rapture precedes the Tribulation.
The Day of the Lord refers to any period of direct divine judgment and includes not only the Tribulation, but the Millennial kingdom in which Jesus, who is God will be ruling and judging from the throne of David in Jerusalem, and includes the destruction of the present heavens and earth. 2 Peter 3:10 speaks of the passing away of the heavens as the Day of the Lord. This occurs after the Millennium has ended.
Yes, there is only one first resurrection. But it is in stages. As already shown, Jesus is the firstfruits of those resurrected. He is included in the order of resurrection in 1 Cor. 15:23, and He was resurrected some 2000 years ago which means that His resurrection was a different stage of the first resurrection.
All Church age believers will be changed in a moment of time at the rapture. Only the church is in view in 1 Corinthians 15:51-53.
Once again, Paul in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5 made it clear that the church is not destined to go through the Day of the Lord with reference to the Tribulation. And also again, in 2 Thessalonians 2 Paul told the Thessalonians not to be deceived by rumors that they were in the Day of the Lord as some had taught but that the Day of the Lord could not come until the man of lawlessness was revealed, and that he could not appear until the restraining influence upon him was removed. And that restraining influence is the indwelling presence of the Holy Spirit in the church age believer.
The church is not found anywhere in Matthew chapters 24 and 25. The events spoken of by Christ in Matthew 24 are prophetic and have to do with the Tribulation. Matthew 24:13 refers specifically to Tribulational believers who survive to the end of the Tribulation going into the Millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies. While Tribulational believers are eternally saved, the salvation being spoken of in Matthew 24:13 refers to physical deliverance.
There may in fact be more than seven years between the rapture of the church and the Second Advent of Christ since the rapture does not begin the Tribulation. The event which begins the Tribulation is the signing of the peace treaty with Israel by the man of lawlessness. And that could occurs perhaps even years after the church is raptured.
But how do we know the Tribulation will be 7 years? Since I already explained that in both post #7 and 15 of this thread, I will refer you back to it.
As I said earlier in this post, the church is a new creation in which both Jewish and Gentile believers are brought together in one body called the church by the baptism of the Holy Spirit. This is unique to this dispensation. It did not exist prior to the Day of Pentecost 50 days after the resurrection of Christ, and it will not exist after the church has been raptured.
The church is not Israel. It is a new creation which is being formed during the time between the Day of Pentecost and the rapture of the church. Refer to earlier in the post.
Yes, there is a Church age, and we are in it. And as the general outline of Revelation 1:19 shows, the Church age precedes the Tribulation.
Rev. 1:19 ''Therefore write the things which you have seen,'' refers to the things shown to John in Revelation chapter one.
''and the things which are'' refers to the events of this present Church age which is represented by the seven churches of Asia which are addressed in chapters 2 and 3.
''and the things which will take place after theses things.'', refer to the events of the Tribulation and the things which will follow the Tribulation.
As that general outline shows, the Tribulation follows the Church age which means that the church will not go through the Tribulation.
And no, the explanation for 2 Thess. 2:1-3 is not made up. Paul was not telling the Thessalonians not to be worried about Christ returning and being raptured. He was assuring them that the Day of the Lord (the Tribulation) had not come and that they would not go through it. As pointed out, in 1 Thessalonians chapters 4 and 5 the context shows that the church is to be raptured before the Day of the Lord, and that the Lord has not destined us (the church) for wrath.
As for 2 Thess. 2:7 which does indeed say 'out of (Ek-ἐκ) the way or midst (mesou - μέσου)', the 'he' who is mentioned can only refer to the Holy Spirit. There is no one else who can restrain the appearance of the antichrist.
For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way [NASB]
FOR-THE MYSTERY ALREADY IS WORKING - OF LAWLESSNESS, ONLY [THERE IS]ONE HOLDING [IT]BACK JUST NOW UNTIL OUT OF [THE]MIDST(WAY) HE IS GONE. [The Greek/English Interlinear New Testament UBS 4th edition, Nestle-Aland 26th edition]
Verse 8 then goes on to say;
Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; [NASB]
As the Bible Knowledge Commentary states;
The Holy Spirit of God is the only Person with sufficient (supernatural) power to do this restraining. Some object to this being the Holy Spirit on the grounds that to katechon in 2 Thessalonians 2:6 is neuter (''what is holding back''). But this is no problem for two reasons: (a) The neuter is sometimes used of the Holy Spirit (John 14:26; 15:26; 16:13-14). (b) In 2 Thessalonians 2:7 the words are masculine: ho katechón,the one who . . . holds it back. How does He do it? Through Christians, whom He indwells and through whom He works in society to hold back the swelling tide of lawless living. How will He be taken out of the way? When the church leaves the earth in the Rapture, the Holy Spirit will be taken out of the way in the sense that His unique lawlessness-restraining ministry through God's people will be removed (cf. Gen. 6:3). The removal of the Restrainer must obviously precede the day of the Lord. Paul's reasoning is thus a strong argument for the pre-tribulational Rapture; the Thessalonians were not in the Great Tribulation because the Rapture had not yet occurred. [The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, p. 719]
The everlasting gospel I thought was the good news of salvation. The gospel only preached as judgement would be a false gospel according to Paul. The commentaries about Rev 14:6 that I found say it is the same as our gospel, only Scofield is the exception, but he was the one that spread Pre-trib, his bias is clear to be seen. In the Dake`s bible, who is Pre-trib this bias is not found: "He (the angel) preaches the everlasting gospel to all men on earth during the last 3 1/2 years of this age. This gospel is the same as what we now preach with but one exception, that the hour of God`s judgement is come. All theories that this gospel is a special one are false."
Jesus confirms it in Mat 24:14 "this gospel shall be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations; and then shall the end come. Note that the end here is not 7 years before the end.
The church age or dispensation of the church this words are not found in the bible. If you refer to the dispensation of grace, which is the gospel of grace, I agree. This dispensation of grace will end with the Rapture, I agree. But I do not agree with a dispensation of Israel, I have not to look it up, this word is also not in the bible, I am sure.
That day in Jer 30:7 and 8 refers to the 2. coming of Christ and not to the Tribulation, which is not the Day of the Lord. That Israel is in trouble when Jesus returns is out of question. The time of Jacob`s trouble will be 3 1/2 years and not 7.
I agree that the pentecostal church is special and did not exist before. But if you believe that there was no church before and no other church exists now beside the Pentecost church, I do not agree. There was a church in the wilderness (OT) in Act 7:38.
There is a gathering, an assembly of the firstborn, called church in Heaven (Heb12:23).
The church is the gathering of the saints (Act 14:27). In the time of the NT it is the body of Christ or the bride of Christ or the New Jerusalem, the habitation of all saints of OT and NT, that includes also the so called Tribulation saints.
I was referring to Rev 11:18, where it says thy wrath has come and that goes together with the judgement of the dead (resurrection) and the reward for the saints (Rapture) and the destruction of the wicked (Sudden Destruction). Verse 17 says that Christ reigns, that is his 2, coming. Rev 14:14-20 we have two harvest, Jesus explains in Mat 13.
I know already that we do not agree at the Day of the Lord. On this day the Rapture happens, I think the bible says so. If the Tribulation would be the Day of the Lord, then the Rapture has to take place during the tribulation and not before or after. I agree the day of the Lord can also be 1000 years, the Millennium. But not 1007 years including the Tribulation.
1. Cor 15:23 are the First Fruits. That includes the OT saints (Mat 27:53). The next resurrection is the main harvest, the First Resurrection and then the gleanings at the end after 1000 years. That is the order, to add another Resurrection is to add to the word of God.
He that endures till the end, shall be saved Mat 24:13. You say that is for the Tribulation saints. In Rev 2:26 it says to keep the works till the end, that applies to this church age you say. I think you have to make a study when this age ends without an assumed bias of Pre-trib.
You say the church is not Israel. It is right, the Israel after the flesh is not saved yet and does not belong to the church. But the Gentile believers are grafted into the natural Olive tree of Israel and therefore spiritual Israel. That is the true church, the Israel of God, that always existed, the root of the tree, from where the life comes. The Gentiles that believe in Jesus Christ are the commonwealth of Israel. They have a king, who is called the King of Israel.
I do not agree that Rev 1:9 gives a timeline for the tribulation and the Rapture. Rev 2+3 are not only present, but have also past and future events. Rev 3:10 for instance.
2. Thess 2 1-3 you say that Paul assures them that the Day of the Lord ( the Tribulation) has not yet come and that they have not to go through the Tribulation. That Paul is referring to the Tribulation is an assumption. Nothing is said that they have not to go through the Tribulation at all. The contrary is the case. Paul refers to the coming of the Lord and the Rapture (concerning) and not the Tribulation and that they have to face the Antichrist. The church fathers till the 3. century taught that the church (the believers) have to face the Antichrist.
1. Thess 4+5 speaks about the Rapture and Day of the Lord. When they say peace and safety, than the Day of the Lord, which is Sudden Destruction, will come upon them. This has nothing to do with the Tribulation, but with the 2. coming of the Lord. The believers that do not sleep, will know the times, because they see the signs (when you see all the things Jesus told us in Mat 24), then lift up your heads, for your salvation comes. The wrath of God comes also at His 2. coming (Rev 11:18) at the Day of the Lord, when the Sudden Destruction comes upon them. The Rapture is before the wrath is poured out. But both happen at the Day of the Lord, which is after the Tribulation and the sun, moon and stars do not shine (Mat 24:29-31; Act 2:20; Joel 2:31).
About the "he" in 2. Thess 2:7 the experts of Greek may decide. But if the Holy Spirit that came at Pentecost goes, it will be 3 1/2 years before Jesus comes and not 7. That the church go with Him, it does not say, it is again an assumption.
The everlasting gospel I thought was the good news of salvation. The gospel only preached as judgement would be a false gospel according to Paul. The commentaries about Rev 14:6 that I found say it is the same as our gospel, only Scofield is the exception, but he was the one that spread Pre-trib, his bias is clear to be seen. In the Dake`s bible, who is Pre-trib this bias is not found: "He (the angel) preaches the everlasting gospel to all men on earth during the last 3 1/2 years of this age. This gospel is the same as what we now preach with but one exception, that the hour of God`s judgement is come. All theories that this gospel is a special one are false."
Jesus confirms it in Mat 24:14 "this gospel shall be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations; and then shall the end come. Note that the end here is not 7 years before the end.
The gospel of salvation will indeed be taught throughout the Tribulation. The 144,000 Jewish witnesses, and the two witnesses who are perhaps Moses and Elijah will spread the gospel of salvation, and those who have been saved will no doubt witness to others. The Bible will there in the Tribulation and will serve as a witness.
But the particular gospel mentioned in Revelation 14:6-7 is not that gospel message. You must understand that the word 'gospel' means 'good news'. And while the gospel of salvation is certainly good news, it is not the only good news.
The immediate context is that the angel in Revelation 14:6-7 is proclaiming the news that the hour of God's judgment has come. And this is good news for both Jewish and Gentile believers during the Tribulation.
C. I. Scofield was not and is not the only one to recognize this fact.
The Rev. Clarence Larkin was one of the most widely influential thinkers on end-time prophecies of the early twentieth century. And he was pre-tribulational. On Revelation 14:6-7 he writes;
This is what the Angel preaches in this chapter. It is neither the ''Gospel of the Kingdom,'' nor of ''Grace.'' Its burden is not Salvation but JUDGMENT. ''Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the HOUR OF HIS JUDGMENT IS COME.'' It is ''Good News'' to Israel, and all who are passing through the ''fires of Judgment,'' because it declares that their troubles will soon end in the judgment and destruction of Antichrist. It calls on men to worship God as ''Creator,'' and not as ''Savior,'' and so it is called in the Revised Version---''THE ETERNAL GOSPEL,'' the Gospel that has been proclaimed from Eden down by Patriarchs and Prophets, and not an ''Everlasting Gospel'' in the sense that it saves men for all eternity.
There is ''ANOTHER GOSPEL'' (Gal. 1: 6-12, 2. Cor. 11: 4), which is not another, and which Paul repudiated. It is a perversion of the true Gospel and has many seductive forms, and in the main teaches that ''faith'' is not sufficient to Salvation, nor able to keep and perfect, and so emphasizes ''Good Works.'' Col. 2:18-23, Heb. 6:1, 9:14. The Apostle pronounces a fearful ''Anathema'' upon its preachers and teachers. Gal. 1:8-9. Our message is: ''Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.'' Acts 16:31. The Angel's message is: Fear God for the HOUR of His Judgment is come.'' Men reject he human messenger and they will also reject the Angelic messenger, they will not believe even though ONE (Jesus) rose from the dead. ['The Book of Revelation', originally published in 1919, p. 134, Rev. Clarence Larkin,]
The Bible Knowledge Commentary states;
14:6-8. John was then given a vision of an angel carrying a message called the eternal gospel. The angel was commissioned to bring his message to every group of people on the earth. Because of the word ''gospel,'' some have felt that this was a message of salvation or the good news of the coming kingdom. The context, however, seems to indicate otherwise, for the message is one of judgment and condemnation. The angel announced, Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come. So the ''eternal'' message seems to be a message of God's righteousness and judgment rather then a message of salvation.
The first angel was followed by a second angel who announced that Babylon the Great, which intoxicated others with her adulteries, has fallen. This apparently is in anticipation of the description of that city (see comments on chap. 18). [The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, p. 964.]
The Scofield notes say;
1 (14:6) The Gospel, Summary; The word ''gospel'' means good news. As used in the N.T., the word deals with different aspects of divine revelation. Absolutely essential to man's salvation is the Gospel of the grace of God (Rom. 2:16, refs.), This is the good news that Jesus Christ died on the cross for the sins of the world, that He was raised from the dead on account of our justification, and that by Him all who believe are justified from all things. It is described as the Gospel ''of God'' (Rom. 1:1) because it originates in His love; ''of Christ'' (2 Cor.10: 14) because it flows from His sacrifice, and because He is the object of faith; of ''the grace of God'' (Acts 20:24) because it saves those whom the law curses; ''glorious'' (2 Cor. 4:4; 1 Tim. 1:11) because it concerns Him who is in the glory and who is bringing many sons to glory (Heb. 2:10); ''of your salvation'' (Eph. 1:13) because it is ''the power of God unto salvation to every one who believeth'' (Rom. 1:16); and of peace (Eph. 6:15) because through Christ it makes peace between the believing sinner and God, and makes inward peace possible.
Another aspect of the good news is ''the gospel of the kingdom'' (Mt. 4:23), i.e. the good news that God purposes to set up on the earth the kingdom of Christ, the Son of David, in fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant (2 Sam. 7:16, note). The good news of this kingdom was announced by the O.T. prophets (Isa. 9:6-7), by Christ in His first coming (Matt. 9:35) and will be proclaimed during the great tribulation (Mt. 24:14).
The ''everlasting gospel'' (Rev. 14:6ff.) is described as the announcement of divine judgment upon the wicked in the coming great tribulation. It is good news for the suffering believers as it heralds their coming deliverance and reward (cp. v. 12.) In view of this those who ''dwell on the earth'' are exhorted to fear God and worship Him (v. 7).
The good news of divine revelation is contrasted with ''another gospel'' (2 Cor. 11:4; Gal. 1:6) which Paul states ''is not another,'' but a perversion of the Gospel of the grace of God. We are warned against all its seductive forms which deny the sufficiency of grace alone to save, keep, and perfect. Its teachers lie under the awful anathema of God (Gal. 1:9).
The word ''gospel,'' therefore, includes various aspects of the good news of divine revelation. But the fact that God has proclaimed the good news of the Gospel of grace, the Gospel of the coming, and the everlasting gospel of divine judgment upon the wicked and deliverance of believers does not mean that there is more than one Gospel of salvation. Grace is the basis for salvation in all dispensations, and is under all circumstance the only way of salvation from sin. [The New Scofield Reference Edition; 1967, p. 1366]
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The church age or dispensation of the church this words are not found in the bible. If you refer to the dispensation of grace, which is the gospel of grace, I agree. This dispensation of grace will end with the Rapture, I agree. But I do not agree with a dispensation of Israel, I have not to look it up, this word is also not in the bible, I am sure.
There is often more than one way of saying a thing. The designation 'Church Age' while not found in the Bible refers to the stewardship or dispensation (Eph. 3:2) of the Church which began on the Day of Pentecost 50 days after the resurrection of Christ and will continue until the rapture of the Church. This dispensation was not made known (Eph. 3:5) prior to Jesus' announcement in Matthew 16:18.
The dispensation of Israel, which was under the law, is distinct from the church. I don't want to take the time to go into the differences between the various dispensations, but if you are interested, you can refer to the following;[indent] DOCTRINE OF DISPENSATIONS
2000-Plan of God for the Ages-Dispensations
The one doctrine that has opened up the scriptures to the largest number of people is the doctrine of dispensations. Many people have indicated that when they heard the doctrine of dispensations, God's plan for the ages, everything in the bible began to make sense. Dr. Dean taught this series while Pastor of Preston City Bible Church in Preston, Connecticut. DeanBible.org: Audio Files
Once in the site, the first class is described as shown below.
Dispensations-001 <---click here for the audio.
Times and Epochs
I realize that you may not be interested, but if you are, feel free to study it.
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That day in Jer 30:7 and 8 refers to the 2. coming of Christ and not to the Tribulation, which is not the Day of the Lord. That Israel is in trouble when Jesus returns is out of question. The time of Jacob`s trouble will be 3 1/2 years and not 7.
The time of Jacob's trouble or distress (Jeremiah 30:7) is the Tribulation which occurs during Daniel's 70th week. While the judgments of last 3 1/2 years of that time will certainly be more severe than in the first 3 1/2 years, the seal judgments begin in the first half of the 7 year period.
Referring to the Bible Knowledge Commentary once again, on the time of Jacobs Trouble, it states;
(2) The nation's distress. 30:4-7. The return of Israel and Judah to the land will be preceded by a time of national distress. Cries of fear and terror will be heard among these captives instead of cries of peace. Jeremiah compared the anguish of men clutching themselves in fear to a woman in labor (cf. 4:31; 6:24; 13:21; 22:23; 49:24; 50:43). The coming calamity will be so awful that none will be like it in comparison. Jeremiah characterized it as a time of trouble. Yet all will not be lost because God guaranteed that the nation will be saved out of it. God will rescue His people in the midst of their distress.
To what ''time of trouble' was Jeremiah referring? Some have felt that he was pointing to the coming fall of Judah to Babylon or to the later fall of Babylon to Medo-Persia. However, in both of these periods the Northern Kingdom of Israel was not affected. It had already gone into captivity (in 722 B.C.). A better solution is to see Jeremiah referring to the still-future Tribulation period when the remnant of Israel and Judah will experience a time of unparalleled persecution (Dan. 9:27; 12:1; Matt. 24:15-22). The period will end when Christ appears to rescue His elect (Rom. 11:26) and establish His kingdom (Matt. 24:30-31; 25:31-46; Rev. 19: 11-21; 20:4-6). [Bible Knowledge Commentary, Old Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, p. 1168]
The Day of the Lord does not refer to a 24 hour day. The term refers to any period of direct divine judgment upon the earth. In Revelation 6:17 with reference to the breaking of the sixth seal which takes place before the interlude after which the seventh seal is broken, it is said;
for the great day of their [reference to God the Father and the Lamb -Jesus Christ] wrath has come, and who is able to stand?''
The great day of their wrath equates with the Day of the Lord.
With the breaking of the sixth seal the events described in 6:12-16 occur. But even before that, one fourth of the earth's population perishes as a result of the breaking of the fourth seal. And after the seal judgments there still remains the trumpet judgments and the bowl judgments. Yes, the Day of the Lord begins in the Tribulation, includes His Second Advent, includes the entire Millennium because God (Jesus) is ruling from the throne of David in Jerusalem. And He will rule with perfect judgment and with a rod of iron. And the Day of the Lord includes the destruction of the present heavens and earth as stated in 2 Peter. 3:10.
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I agree that the pentecostal church is special and did not exist before. But if you believe that there was no church before and no other church exists now beside the Pentecost church, I do not agree. There was a church in the wilderness (OT) in Act 7:38.
There is a gathering, an assembly of the firstborn, called church in Heaven (Heb12:23).
The church is the gathering of the saints (Act 14:27). In the time of the NT it is the body of Christ or the bride of Christ or the New Jerusalem, the habitation of all saints of OT and NT, that includes also the so called Tribulation saints.
The word 'church' refers to an assembly. As you just acknowledged, the 'Pentecostal church' did not exist before, and that is what is in view here. Not the Old Testament assembly of Israel. The church which began on the Day of Pentecost, involves the baptism of the Holy Spirit by which means the 'body of Christ,' the New Testament church is formed. Once the 'body of Christ' has been formed it will be taken off the earth by means of the rapture and taken into heaven.
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I was referring to Rev 11:18, where it says thy wrath has come and that goes together with the judgement of the dead (resurrection) and the reward for the saints (Rapture) and the destruction of the wicked (Sudden Destruction). Verse 17 says that Christ reigns, that is his 2, coming. Rev 14:14-20 we have two harvest, Jesus explains in Mat 13.
Zur, first of all, the reward for the saints is not a reference to the rapture of the church. The context of Revelation 11:18 is the sounding of the seventh trumpet (11:15) which takes place during the middle of the Tribulation. Not at the end. The twenty-four elders (11:16) are anticipating the kingdom which has not yet fully come. There is still 3 1/2 years to go as can be seen by reading chapter 12 which speaks of the warfare in heaven between Satan and his angels and Michael and his angels. Satan is permanently banned from heaven at that point, and having been confined to the earth, he persecutes the Jews (12:13). But God has prepared a place in the wilderness (in the mountains) for those in Judea (Matthew 24:16) to flee to where they will be nourished from the presence of Satan for the next 3 1/2 years which is described as 'a time and times and half a time' in Revelation 12:14, and as one thousand two hundred and sixty days in Revelation 12:6.
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I know already that we do not agree at the Day of the Lord. On this day the Rapture happens, I think the bible says so. If the Tribulation would be the Day of the Lord, then the Rapture has to take place during the tribulation and not before or after. I agree the day of the Lord can also be 1000 years, the Millennium. But not 1007 years including the Tribulation.
I think that I have clearly shown that the Day of the Lord does begin in the Tribulation, as well as the fact that the church is raptured before (and perhaps even years before) the Tribulation begins. The rapture of the church does not begin the Tribulation. The Tribulation begins with the signing of a covenant by the man of lawlessness [2 Thess.2:3], who is the prince who is to come [Daniel 9:26-27].
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1. Cor 15:23 are the First Fruits. That includes the OT saints (Mat 27:53). The next resurrection is the main harvest, the First Resurrection and then the gleanings at the end after 1000 years. That is the order, to add another Resurrection is to add to the word of God.
No, it does not include the OT saints. Matthew 27:53 is not speaking of resurrection, but of resuscitation of some OT saints who subsequently died again just as Lazarus and others had been resuscitated and died again. The church has the privilege of being the first group of people resurrected by virtue of being the body of Christ which is a designation which applies only to the NT church which is a new creation.
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He that endures till the end, shall be saved Mat 24:13. You say that is for the Tribulation saints. In Rev 2:26 it says to keep the works till the end, that applies to this church age you say. I think you have to make a study when this age ends without an assumed bias of Pre-trib.
Yes. But Revelation 2:26 is speaking of rewards. Not eternal salvation. Revelation chapters 2 and 3 deal with the church. The seven churches of Asia which are addressed represent churches though out the present Church age. This has nothing to do with Matthew 24:13 which deals with Tribulational saints who survive to the end of the Tribulation going into the Millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies.
The rest of your post I will address later in a different post.
You say the church is not Israel. It is right, the Israel after the flesh is not saved yet and does not belong to the church. But the Gentile believers are grafted into the natural Olive tree of Israel and therefore spiritual Israel. That is the true church, the Israel of God, that always existed, the root of the tree, from where the life comes. The Gentiles that believe in Jesus Christ are the commonwealth of Israel. They have a king, who is called the King of Israel.
I meant to get to this last part of your post sooner, but it didn't work out that way.
Regarding Paul's metaphor concerning the Olive tree, Paul was not teaching that the church is spiritual Israel. Nor was he saying that the Olive tree is Israel. I'll explain that. It is necessary to identify who the branches are, what the branches are grafted into, and what the root is.
The Olive tree represents the place of blessing.
The natural branches of course represent national Israel. Some, but not all of the natural branches get broken off.
The wild branches represent Gentile believers which are grafted in among the natural branches.
The rich root of the Olive tree represents Abraham, or rather the Abrahamic covenant God made with Abraham.
The Olive tree then is not Israel or the church, but is the place of blessing.
The natural branches which get broken off represent Jewish unbelievers. They got broken off on the day of Pentecost which began the Church age.
The wild Olive branches were grafted in on the day of Pentecost.
The natural branches which were not broken off represent Jewish believers who entered into the Church age.
Paul's point not only with this metaphor, but with the whole of Romans chapter 11 is that Israel has not been cast away forever. Israel has only been set aside temporarily as shown in 11:25-27 which summarizes the metaphor and is the application of it. Romans 11:25-27 states;
For I do not want you, brethren to be uninformed of this mystery---so that you will not be wise in your own estimation---that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26] and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, ''The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.'' 27] This is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.
So the hardening is partial, not total, and it is temporary, not forever.
On the day of Pentecost, Jewish believers became a part of the Church and were part of the stewardship of the Church and were no longer a part of the stewardship of Israel. Stewardship responsibilities have to do with dissemination of the gospel. In the age of Israel Jews had the responsibility to witness to unbelievers. In the dispensation of the Church that responsibility belongs to the Church.
Since Paul's purpose is to show that Israel will not be cast away forever, his Olive tree metaphor speaks of the fact that God can graft the natural branches which were broken off back in again.
Now there is a difference between the terms 'the Israel of God' and 'spiritual Israel.' While the Church is not spiritual Israel, the term 'the Israel of God' refers to Jewish believers within the Church. God promised to save a remnant of Israel in every generation and that remnant consists of the Jewish believers who are a part of the Church.
I do not agree that Rev 1:9 gives a timeline for the tribulation and the Rapture. Rev 2+3 are not only present, but have also past and future events. Rev 3:10 for instance.
While you may not agree, Rev. 1:19 is certainly a general outline of the Book.
Rev. 1:19 ''Therefore write the things which you have seen,'' refers to the things shown to John in Revelation chapter one.
''and the things which are'' refers to the events of this present Church age which is represented by the seven churches of Asia which are addressed in chapters 2 and 3.
''and the things which will take place after these things.'', refer to the events of the Tribulation and the things which will follow the Tribulation.
Now this outline shows a chronology of the events. It begins with the things which had already been shown to John. It is then followed by the things which are, which in turn is followed by the things which will take place after the things which are (these things). The things which are refer to the seven churches which John was instructed to write to and which represent churches throughout the Church age. Since 'the things which are' precede 'the things which will take place after these things (the things which are), then the two cannot take place at the same time. One follows the other. The events of the Tribulation follow the events of the Church age. They do not happen at the same time.
The Bible Knowledge Commentary has the following on Revelation 1:19.
1:19-20. Following the revelation of Christ in glory, John was again commanded to write. The subject of his record has three tenses: (a) what he had already experienced: what you have seen; (b) the present experiences; what is now; and (c) the future: what will take place later. This appears to be the divine outline of Revelation. What John was told to write was first a record of his experience (chap. 1), now history. Then he was to write the present message of Christ to seven churches (chaps. 2-3). Finally, the main purpose of the book being prophetic, he was to introduce the events preceding, culminating in, and following the coming of Christ (chaps. 4-22). [The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, p. 931]
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2. Thess 2 1-3 you say that Paul assures them that the Day of the Lord ( the Tribulation) has not yet come and that they have not to go through the Tribulation. That Paul is referring to the Tribulation is an assumption. Nothing is said that they have not to go through the Tribulation at all. The contrary is the case. Paul refers to the coming of the Lord and the Rapture (concerning) and not the Tribulation and that they have to face the Antichrist. The church fathers till the 3. century taught that the church (the believers) have to face the Antichrist.
No, it is not an assumption. I have already shown that the day of the Lord begins in the Tribulation and that the church is not destined to go though it.
In 1 Thessalonians 5:9 which refers to the Day of the Lord, Paul writes 'For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. In context, the wrath refers to the wrath of the day of the Lord, which again, I have shown begins in the Tribulation.
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1. Thess 4+5 speaks about the Rapture and Day of the Lord. When they say peace and safety, than the Day of the Lord, which is Sudden Destruction, will come upon them. This has nothing to do with the Tribulation, but with the 2. coming of the Lord. The believers that do not sleep, will know the times, because they see the signs (when you see all the things Jesus told us in Mat 24), then lift up your heads, for your salvation comes. The wrath of God comes also at His 2. coming (Rev 11:18) at the Day of the Lord, when the Sudden Destruction comes upon them. The Rapture is before the wrath is poured out. But both happen at the Day of the Lord, which is after the Tribulation and the sun, moon and stars do not shine (Mat 24:29-31; Act 2:20; Joel 2:31).
The sudden destruction which comes upon Israel will be at the middle of the Tribulation when the man of lawlessness breaks the peace treaty he had signed with Israel which is what begins Daniel's 70th week. At this time, he will seat himself in the temple. This is the abomination of desolation of which Jesus warned in Matthew 24: 15 and following. When this happens they are to flee into the mountains where as it says in Revelation 12:6 'they will be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days. That is 3 1/2 years. This happens 3 1/2 years before Jesus returns.
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About the "he" in 2. Thess 2:7 the experts of Greek may decide. But if the Holy Spirit that came at Pentecost goes, it will be 3 1/2 years before Jesus comes and not 7. That the church go with Him, it does not say, it is again an assumption.
Once the church is raptured, the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way in the sense that He removes His restraining ministry which is what prevents the man of lawlessness from appearing. The rapture of the church does not begin the Tribulation. The Tribulation will begin with the signing of the peace treaty with Israel. But that could potentially happen even years after the church has been raptured. But once the peace treaty is signed, that will be 7 years before Christ returns. Daniel 9:27 says that he (the prince who is to come - the man of lawlessness) will make a firm covenant with the many (a peace treaty with Israel) for one week. That is one week of years which is 7 years. But he will break that treaty in the middle of the week which is 3 1/2 years into Daniel's 70th week. At that time, the Jews in Judea are to flee into the wilderness where God has prepared a place for them for the next 3 1/2 years.
Really this is all pretty clear if you just make an effort to study it a bit.
The gospel of salvation will indeed be taught throughout the Tribulation. The 144,000 Jewish witnesses, and the two witnesses who are perhaps Moses and Elijah will spread the gospel of salvation, and those who have been saved will no doubt witness to others. The Bible will there in the Tribulation and will serve as a witness.
But the particular gospel mentioned in Revelation 14:6-7 is not that gospel message. You must understand that the word 'gospel' means 'good news'. And while the gospel of salvation is certainly good news, it is not the only good news.
The immediate context is that the angel in Revelation 14:6-7 is proclaiming the news that the hour of God's judgment has come. And this is good news for both Jewish and Gentile believers during the Tribulation.
C. I. Scofield was not and is not the only one to recognize this fact.
The Rev. Clarence Larkin was one of the most widely influential thinkers on end-time prophecies of the early twentieth century. And he was pre-tribulational. On Revelation 14:6-7 he writes;
This is what the Angel preaches in this chapter. It is neither the ''Gospel of the Kingdom,'' nor of ''Grace.'' Its burden is not Salvation but JUDGMENT. ''Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the HOUR OF HIS JUDGMENT IS COME.'' It is ''Good News'' to Israel, and all who are passing through the ''fires of Judgment,'' because it declares that their troubles will soon end in the judgment and destruction of Antichrist. It calls on men to worship God as ''Creator,'' and not as ''Savior,'' and so it is called in the Revised Version---''THE ETERNAL GOSPEL,'' the Gospel that has been proclaimed from Eden down by Patriarchs and Prophets, and not an ''Everlasting Gospel'' in the sense that it saves men for all eternity.
There is ''ANOTHER GOSPEL'' (Gal. 1: 6-12, 2. Cor. 11: 4), which is not another, and which Paul repudiated. It is a perversion of the true Gospel and has many seductive forms, and in the main teaches that ''faith'' is not sufficient to Salvation, nor able to keep and perfect, and so emphasizes ''Good Works.'' Col. 2:18-23, Heb. 6:1, 9:14. The Apostle pronounces a fearful ''Anathema'' upon its preachers and teachers. Gal. 1:8-9. Our message is: ''Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and thou shalt be saved.'' Acts 16:31. The Angel's message is: Fear God for the HOUR of His Judgment is come.'' Men reject he human messenger and they will also reject the Angelic messenger, they will not believe even though ONE (Jesus) rose from the dead. ['The Book of Revelation', originally published in 1919, p. 134, Rev. Clarence Larkin,]
The Bible Knowledge Commentary states;
14:6-8. John was then given a vision of an angel carrying a message called the eternal gospel. The angel was commissioned to bring his message to every group of people on the earth. Because of the word ''gospel,'' some have felt that this was a message of salvation or the good news of the coming kingdom. The context, however, seems to indicate otherwise, for the message is one of judgment and condemnation. The angel announced, Fear God and give Him glory, because the hour of His judgment has come. So the ''eternal'' message seems to be a message of God's righteousness and judgment rather then a message of salvation.
The first angel was followed by a second angel who announced that Babylon the Great, which intoxicated others with her adulteries, has fallen. This apparently is in anticipation of the description of that city (see comments on chap. 18). [The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, p. 964.]
The Scofield notes say;
1 (14:6) The Gospel, Summary; The word ''gospel'' means good news. As used in the N.T., the word deals with different aspects of divine revelation. Absolutely essential to man's salvation is the Gospel of the grace of God (Rom. 2:16, refs.), This is the good news that Jesus Christ died on the cross for the sins of the world, that He was raised from the dead on account of our justification, and that by Him all who believe are justified from all things. It is described as the Gospel ''of God'' (Rom. 1:1) because it originates in His love; ''of Christ'' (2 Cor.10: 14) because it flows from His sacrifice, and because He is the object of faith; of ''the grace of God'' (Acts 20:24) because it saves those whom the law curses; ''glorious'' (2 Cor. 4:4; 1 Tim. 1:11) because it concerns Him who is in the glory and who is bringing many sons to glory (Heb. 2:10); ''of your salvation'' (Eph. 1:13) because it is ''the power of God unto salvation to every one who believeth'' (Rom. 1:16); and of peace (Eph. 6:15) because through Christ it makes peace between the believing sinner and God, and makes inward peace possible.
Another aspect of the good news is ''the gospel of the kingdom'' (Mt. 4:23), i.e. the good news that God purposes to set up on the earth the kingdom of Christ, the Son of David, in fulfillment of the Davidic Covenant (2 Sam. 7:16, note). The good news of this kingdom was announced by the O.T. prophets (Isa. 9:6-7), by Christ in His first coming (Matt. 9:35) and will be proclaimed during the great tribulation (Mt. 24:14).
The ''everlasting gospel'' (Rev. 14:6ff.) is described as the announcement of divine judgment upon the wicked in the coming great tribulation. It is good news for the suffering believers as it heralds their coming deliverance and reward (cp. v. 12.) In view of this those who ''dwell on the earth'' are exhorted to fear God and worship Him (v. 7).
The good news of divine revelation is contrasted with ''another gospel'' (2 Cor. 11:4; Gal. 1:6) which Paul states ''is not another,'' but a perversion of the Gospel of the grace of God. We are warned against all its seductive forms which deny the sufficiency of grace alone to save, keep, and perfect. Its teachers lie under the awful anathema of God (Gal. 1:9).
The word ''gospel,'' therefore, includes various aspects of the good news of divine revelation. But the fact that God has proclaimed the good news of the Gospel of grace, the Gospel of the coming, and the everlasting gospel of divine judgment upon the wicked and deliverance of believers does not mean that there is more than one Gospel of salvation. Grace is the basis for salvation in all dispensations, and is under all circumstance the only way of salvation from sin. [The New Scofield Reference Edition; 1967, p. 1366]
There is often more than one way of saying a thing. The designation 'Church Age' while not found in the Bible refers to the stewardship or dispensation (Eph. 3:2) of the Church which began on the Day of Pentecost 50 days after the resurrection of Christ and will continue until the rapture of the Church. This dispensation was not made known (Eph. 3:5) prior to Jesus' announcement in Matthew 16:18.
The dispensation of Israel, which was under the law, is distinct from the church. I don't want to take the time to go into the differences between the various dispensations, but if you are interested, you can refer to the following;[indent] DOCTRINE OF DISPENSATIONS
2000-Plan of God for the Ages-Dispensations
The one doctrine that has opened up the scriptures to the largest number of people is the doctrine of dispensations. Many people have indicated that when they heard the doctrine of dispensations, God's plan for the ages, everything in the bible began to make sense. Dr. Dean taught this series while Pastor of Preston City Bible Church in Preston, Connecticut. DeanBible.org: Audio Files
Once in the site, the first class is described as shown below.
Dispensations-001 <---click here for the audio.
Times and Epochs
I realize that you may not be interested, but if you are, feel free to study it.
The time of Jacob's trouble or distress (Jeremiah 30:7) is the Tribulation which occurs during Daniel's 70th week. While the judgments of last 3 1/2 years of that time will certainly be more severe than in the first 3 1/2 years, the seal judgments begin in the first half of the 7 year period.
Referring to the Bible Knowledge Commentary once again, on the time of Jacobs Trouble, it states;
(2) The nation's distress. 30:4-7. The return of Israel and Judah to the land will be preceded by a time of national distress. Cries of fear and terror will be heard among these captives instead of cries of peace. Jeremiah compared the anguish of men clutching themselves in fear to a woman in labor (cf. 4:31; 6:24; 13:21; 22:23; 49:24; 50:43). The coming calamity will be so awful that none will be like it in comparison. Jeremiah characterized it as a time of trouble. Yet all will not be lost because God guaranteed that the nation will be saved out of it. God will rescue His people in the midst of their distress.
To what ''time of trouble' was Jeremiah referring? Some have felt that he was pointing to the coming fall of Judah to Babylon or to the later fall of Babylon to Medo-Persia. However, in both of these periods the Northern Kingdom of Israel was not affected. It had already gone into captivity (in 722 B.C.). A better solution is to see Jeremiah referring to the still-future Tribulation period when the remnant of Israel and Judah will experience a time of unparalleled persecution (Dan. 9:27; 12:1; Matt. 24:15-22). The period will end when Christ appears to rescue His elect (Rom. 11:26) and establish His kingdom (Matt. 24:30-31; 25:31-46; Rev. 19: 11-21; 20:4-6). [Bible Knowledge Commentary, Old Testament, An Exposition of the Scriptures by Dallas Seminary Faculty, p. 1168]
The Day of the Lord does not refer to a 24 hour day. The term refers to any period of direct divine judgment upon the earth. In Revelation 6:17 with reference to the breaking of the sixth seal which takes place before the interlude after which the seventh seal is broken, it is said;
for the great day of their [reference to God the Father and the Lamb -Jesus Christ] wrath has come, and who is able to stand?''
The great day of their wrath equates with the Day of the Lord.
With the breaking of the sixth seal the events described in 6:12-16 occur. But even before that, one fourth of the earth's population perishes as a result of the breaking of the fourth seal. And after the seal judgments there still remains the trumpet judgments and the bowl judgments. Yes, the Day of the Lord begins in the Tribulation, includes His Second Advent, includes the entire Millennium because God (Jesus) is ruling from the throne of David in Jerusalem. And He will rule with perfect judgment and with a rod of iron. And the Day of the Lord includes the destruction of the present heavens and earth as stated in 2 Peter. 3:10.
The word 'church' refers to an assembly. As you just acknowledged, the 'Pentecostal church' did not exist before, and that is what is in view here. Not the Old Testament assembly of Israel. The church which began on the Day of Pentecost, involves the baptism of the Holy Spirit by which means the 'body of Christ,' the New Testament church is formed. Once the 'body of Christ' has been formed it will be taken off the earth by means of the rapture and taken into heaven.
Zur, first of all, the reward for the saints is not a reference to the rapture of the church. The context of Revelation 11:18 is the sounding of the seventh trumpet (11:15) which takes place during the middle of the Tribulation. Not at the end. The twenty-four elders (11:16) are anticipating the kingdom which has not yet fully come. There is still 3 1/2 years to go as can be seen by reading chapter 12 which speaks of the warfare in heaven between Satan and his angels and Michael and his angels. Satan is permanently banned from heaven at that point, and having been confined to the earth, he persecutes the Jews (12:13). But God has prepared a place in the wilderness (in the mountains) for those in Judea (Matthew 24:16) to flee to where they will be nourished from the presence of Satan for the next 3 1/2 years which is described as 'a time and times and half a time' in Revelation 12:14, and as one thousand two hundred and sixty days in Revelation 12:6.
I think that I have clearly shown that the Day of the Lord does begin in the Tribulation, as well as the fact that the church is raptured before (and perhaps even years before) the Tribulation begins. The rapture of the church does not begin the Tribulation. The Tribulation begins with the signing of a covenant by the man of lawlessness [2 Thess.2:3], who is the prince who is to come [Daniel 9:26-27].
No, it does not include the OT saints. Matthew 27:53 is not speaking of resurrection, but of resuscitation of some OT saints who subsequently died again just as Lazarus and others had been resuscitated and died again. The church has the privilege of being the first group of people resurrected by virtue of being the body of Christ which is a designation which applies only to the NT church which is a new creation.
Yes. But Revelation 2:26 is speaking of rewards. Not eternal salvation. Revelation chapters 2 and 3 deal with the church. The seven churches of Asia which are addressed represent churches though out the present Church age. This has nothing to do with Matthew 24:13 which deals with Tribulational saints who survive to the end of the Tribulation going into the Millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies.
The rest of your post I will address later in a different post.
I agree the gospel of salvation is preached throughout the Tribulation. If the gospel of grace (Eph 3:2) is the same as the age of the church, than the dispensation of grace and the dispensation of the church end at the 2. advent. That means there is a church in the Tribulation. That the grace ends after the Rapture proofs that the Rapture is not before but after the Tribulation.
The dispensation of the law is till John the baptist (Luke 16:16), than the dispensation of grace comes through the gospel of the kingdom. This gospel is preached as we agree till the 2. advent when the kingdom is manifested through the rule of Christ and His return.
The Tribulation saints are saved and baptized into the body of Christ which is the church. They overcome through the blood of the Lamb, they have the testimony of Jesus Christ, they die in Christ and the ones that remain alive will be raptured after the Tribulation and reign with Christ a 1000 years. They will not go in their mortal body into the Millennium as you say, why should there be a difference between the saints that die and them that remain alive till Jesus comes, that makes no sense.
The day of His wrath Rev 6:17 is the same as Rev 11:17+18. The context proofs that it is the 2. advent of Christ and not the Tribulation. "and hide us from the face of Him that sits on the throne (verse 16)" or "the kingdoms of this word have become the kingdoms of our Lord (verse 15)" all this proof that the time-line in Revelation is not first the seals and than trumpets and than vials, they all end in the 2. advent of Christ. The context of the7th trumpet (Rev 11:15-19) shows that it is not in the middle of the tribulation. The kingdom has fully come and God reigns. Chapter 12 is a parenthetical and shows John that there are hiding places during the Great Tribulation.
Mt 27: 53 is not resuscitation, they were only seen. They did not live among them as Lazarus did. They are the First Fruits with an resurrected body which went with Jesus to Heaven. A witness that was in Heaven said that Abraham for instance had a different body as other saints in Heaven and that he was an elder of the church of the firstborn (Heb).
My subject is not rewards in Rev 2:26. But "till the end". You say that Rev 2 refers to the church age that ends before the Tribulation. The same "till the end" in Mat 24:13 you say refers to the end of Tribulation. You have two ends? Mat 13 Jesus tells us when the end is, harvest and destruction go together and that is the Day of the Lord, when Rapture and Sudden Destruction happen the same day at His second coming. After the Rapture grace ends, at least our dispensation, judgement and the wrath of God follows, a new dispensation, a rule of Christ with the rod of iron.
I meant to get to this last part of your post sooner, but it didn't work out that way.
Regarding Paul's metaphor concerning the Olive tree, Paul was not teaching that the church is spiritual Israel. Nor was he saying that the Olive tree is Israel. I'll explain that. It is necessary to identify who the branches are, what the branches are grafted into, and what the root is.
The Olive tree represents the place of blessing.
The natural branches of course represent national Israel. Some, but not all of the natural branches get broken off.
The wild branches represent Gentile believers which are grafted in among the natural branches.
The rich root of the Olive tree represents Abraham, or rather the Abrahamic covenant God made with Abraham.
The Olive tree then is not Israel or the church, but is the place of blessing.
The natural branches which get broken off represent Jewish unbelievers. They got broken off on the day of Pentecost which began the Church age.
The wild Olive branches were grafted in on the day of Pentecost.
The natural branches which were not broken off represent Jewish believers who entered into the Church age.
Paul's point not only with this metaphor, but with the whole of Romans chapter 11 is that Israel has not been cast away forever. Israel has only been set aside temporarily as shown in 11:25-27 which summarizes the metaphor and is the application of it. Romans 11:25-27 states;
For I do not want you, brethren to be uninformed of this mystery---so that you will not be wise in your own estimation---that a partial hardening has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in; 26] and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, ''The Deliverer will come from Zion, He will remove ungodliness from Jacob.'' 27] This is My covenant with them, when I take away their sins.
So the hardening is partial, not total, and it is temporary, not forever.
On the day of Pentecost, Jewish believers became a part of the Church and were part of the stewardship of the Church and were no longer a part of the stewardship of Israel. Stewardship responsibilities have to do with dissemination of the gospel. In the age of Israel Jews had the responsibility to witness to unbelievers. In the dispensation of the Church that responsibility belongs to the Church.
Since Paul's purpose is to show that Israel will not be cast away forever, his Olive tree metaphor speaks of the fact that God can graft the natural branches which were broken off back in again.
Now there is a difference between the terms 'the Israel of God' and 'spiritual Israel.' While the Church is not spiritual Israel, the term 'the Israel of God' refers to Jewish believers within the Church. God promised to save a remnant of Israel in every generation and that remnant consists of the Jewish believers who are a part of the Church.
While you may not agree, Rev. 1:19 is certainly a general outline of the Book.
Rev. 1:19 ''Therefore write the things which you have seen,'' refers to the things shown to John in Revelation chapter one.
''and the things which are'' refers to the events of this present Church age which is represented by the seven churches of Asia which are addressed in chapters 2 and 3.
''and the things which will take place after these things.'', refer to the events of the Tribulation and the things which will follow the Tribulation.
Now this outline shows a chronology of the events. It begins with the things which had already been shown to John. It is then followed by the things which are, which in turn is followed by the things which will take place after the things which are (these things). The things which are refer to the seven churches which John was instructed to write to and which represent churches throughout the Church age. Since 'the things which are' precede 'the things which will take place after these things (the things which are), then the two cannot take place at the same time. One follows the other. The events of the Tribulation follow the events of the Church age. They do not happen at the same time.
The Bible Knowledge Commentary has the following on Revelation 1:19.
1:19-20. Following the revelation of Christ in glory, John was again commanded to write. The subject of his record has three tenses: (a) what he had already experienced: what you have seen; (b) the present experiences; what is now; and (c) the future: what will take place later. This appears to be the divine outline of Revelation. What John was told to write was first a record of his experience (chap. 1), now history. Then he was to write the present message of Christ to seven churches (chaps. 2-3). Finally, the main purpose of the book being prophetic, he was to introduce the events preceding, culminating in, and following the coming of Christ (chaps. 4-22). [The Bible Knowledge Commentary, New Testament, p. 931]
No, it is not an assumption. I have already shown that the day of the Lord begins in the Tribulation and that the church is not destined to go though it.
In 1 Thessalonians 5:9 which refers to the Day of the Lord, Paul writes 'For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. In context, the wrath refers to the wrath of the day of the Lord, which again, I have shown begins in the Tribulation.
The sudden destruction which comes upon Israel will be at the middle of the Tribulation when the man of lawlessness breaks the peace treaty he had signed with Israel which is what begins Daniel's 70th week. At this time, he will seat himself in the temple. This is the abomination of desolation of which Jesus warned in Matthew 24: 15 and following. When this happens they are to flee into the mountains where as it says in Revelation 12:6 'they will be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days. That is 3 1/2 years. This happens 3 1/2 years before Jesus returns.
Once the church is raptured, the Holy Spirit is taken out of the way in the sense that He removes His restraining ministry which is what prevents the man of lawlessness from appearing. The rapture of the church does not begin the Tribulation. The Tribulation will begin with the signing of the peace treaty with Israel. But that could potentially happen even years after the church has been raptured. But once the peace treaty is signed, that will be 7 years before Christ returns. Daniel 9:27 says that he (the prince who is to come - the man of lawlessness) will make a firm covenant with the many (a peace treaty with Israel) for one week. That is one week of years which is 7 years. But he will break that treaty in the middle of the week which is 3 1/2 years into Daniel's 70th week. At that time, the Jews in Judea are to flee into the wilderness where God has prepared a place for them for the next 3 1/2 years.
Really this is all pretty clear if you just make an effort to study it a bit.
I have studied this subject for over 30 years now. Before any one taught me I fasted and prayed for one week and got the revelation that the bible teaches Post-trib. But this teaching is hidden, there is not a sentence in the bible that tells us exactly when the Rapture happens. It is all about interpretation. And that opens the door for all kind of human opinions. But most believers die and than face the Rapture, therefore it is imminent, every one has to be ready all the time, that is the most important doctrine, that the Lord is coming soon. Jesus Christ is the ark we have to enter, He carries us through. He is the Son of God who was in the fierce hot oven of the 3 Jews, He provided 2-3 Million Israelis for 40 years every think they needed. There were no mall in the wilderness where they could buy. He is our Savior, Lord, healer, provider, comforter, our all in all. He overcame this world, in Him we will also overcome.
I will leave this thread here and wish you God`s blessing from the root of the Olive tree.
I have studied this subject for over 30 years now. Before any one taught me I fasted and prayed for one week and got the revelation that the bible teaches Post-trib. But this teaching is hidden, there is not a sentence in the bible that tells us exactly when the Rapture happens. It is all about interpretation. And that opens the door for all kind of human opinions. But most believers die and than face the Rapture, therefore it is imminent, every one has to be ready all the time, that is the most important doctrine, that the Lord is coming soon. Jesus Christ is the ark we have to enter, He carries us through. He is the Son of God who was in the fierce hot oven of the 3 Jews, He provided 2-3 Million Israelis for 40 years every think they needed. There were no mall in the wilderness where they could buy. He is our Savior, Lord, healer, provider, comforter, our all in all. He overcame this world, in Him we will also overcome.
I will leave this thread here and wish you God`s blessing from the root of the Olive tree.
I as well think this discussion has reached an end point. God bless.
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