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Ok, except you don't attune yourself.... He tunes us. HE changes us. I'm making a pedantic comment, but it's important.
I get what you're saying, and I agree. But I think it's a both/and rather than an either/or. Synergism, if you will (my Lutheran ancestors are probably rolling around in their graves right now. ) Love changes/attunes us to the degree which we act upon it working through us.
We do not disagree, jimmie . . . except for what YOU think is necessary for us to have faith and what that faith must be in. You call it redemptive work that "pays the penalty necessary to appease God's wrath." I reject that savage and barbaric concept. I can see it as redemption . . . to the extent that it redeems God's promise in prophesy to send a Savior. I call it substitution . . . wherein Christ achieved the perfection of agape love that we could not . . . connecting all human consciousness to God's consciousness . . . and saved us ALL as a result. He was our "designated hitter" and He hit a "Grand Slam" for the win.
Ummm scripture says you are commanded to reach that level of love in life. I don't think Christ is a liar, nor Paul, nor John. Teaching people it can't happen, might stop those who are to make it from getting there. I think that is NOT a good thing.
You don't have to twist my words, I did not say I find it offensive today. As I have already explained several times, I used to live a destructive lifestyle, and when I heard people tell me about Jesus, I was offended by it. At the time I didn't even know why, but I was. Countless people can tell you the same thing, and Jesus explained why: This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.
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So how did you come to the light if you hated it, and what's more with the light offending you ?.
We do not disagree, jimmie . . . except for what YOU think is necessary for us to have faith and what that faith must be in. You call it redemptive work that "pays the penalty necessary to appease God's wrath." I reject that savage and barbaric concept. I can see it as redemption . . . to the extent that it redeems God's promise in prophesy to send a Savior. I call it substitution . . . wherein Christ achieved the perfection of agape love that we could not . . . connecting all human consciousness to God's consciousness . . . and saved us ALL as a result. He was our "designated hitter" and He hit a "Grand Slam" for the win.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Catalyst
Ummm scripture says you are commanded to reach that level of love in life. I don't think Christ is a liar, nor Paul, nor John. Teaching people it can't happen, might stop those who are to make it from getting there. I think that is NOT a good thing.
I am just being pragmatic. None of us are likely to achieve the perfect agape love that Christ achieved . . . to the point of enduring scourging and crucifixion in love for us all . . .including His torturers and murderers. If you believe we are all capable of that . . . fine. I am far more skeptical and pragmatic than that. We should all TRY to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. But I for one am glad we have that "repentance" option under the grace and perfection of Christ.
So how did you come to the light if you hated it, and what's more with the light offending you ?.
Like so many others, first I hated it, and resisted it, but it had left a mark in my soul when it revealed my hopeless condition, and that mark grew until I surrendered to it. I know people who have resisted for over 30 years, and are still resisting. They are offended by the truth.
At this point I could add the jealousy fed the feeling of being offended. The people who talked to me had something, a joy, which I knew I didn't have and I was offended by it although they were trying to share it with me. I wanted it, but at the same time I didn't want to admit I wanted it, because I was supposed to be the guy who was living the life where everything was cool, and under control. I didn't want people to know that deep down I was not happy, I was only pretending to have a good time. I was empty, but I didn't want people to see it. That would have been same as admitting failure, and that was out of the question.
Last edited by Finn_Jarber; 10-01-2013 at 03:41 PM..
You don't have to twist my words, I did not say I find it offensive today. As I have already explained several times, I used to live a destructive lifestyle, and when I heard people tell me about Jesus, I was offended by it. At the time I didn't even know why, but I was. Countless people can tell you the same thing, and Jesus explained why: This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed.
Nicky Cruz, a criminal was offended to a point where he struck the pastor who told him 'Jesus loves you', and he threatened to kill him.
Jesus told his disciples they would be hated because of His name, and it happened. They were murdered because of their faith.
You and others here who never experienced the light of the truth torch your soul, have no clue what I am telling you, but it is the reality. Anyone who has eyes and wants to see, will see it all around us. At this time this is foolishness to you, just like the Bible predicted it would be to many people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber
For the third, and final time, I was offended by the Gospel, the truth, by any mention of Jesus. There was nothing worse than hearing someone say "Jesus loves you". I rebelled against the truth, until finally I opened my heart to it. It had nothing to do with mainstream Christianity.
I truely believe by the way you have worded this post copied from the Joel Osteen thread,that you were not just told Jesus loves you, you were told the full evangelical message that we are all sinners, that Jesus on a cross died for sinners and if you believe in him you will got to heaven instead of eternal were your sins deserve to send you, and it was this which offended you. If not could you please clarify exactly what it was that offended you, whether it was someone telling you Jesus loves you or that and some.
What did these people actually tell you about Jesus? Can you be clear about it.
I am just being pragmatic. None of us are likely to achieve the perfect agape love that Christ achieved . . .
If you try to do it, you will fail, that is true. Scripture says it not only can happen, but is supposed to happen. It's quadruply redundant on the point to drive it home. Do you think Abraham knew in advance a ram would be provided. Nope, he trusted. Did Gideon know in advance how charging with 300 people armed with crock pots and bugles would work??? Nope but he trusted.... Don't teach what they bible says is to happen, can't likely happen.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
to the point of enduring scourging and crucifixion in love for us all . . .including His torturers and murderers. If you believe we are all capable of that . . . fine.
You keep talking like it's something you are to achieve? Are you going to let GOD do His work in you, or are you going to try to Usurp HIS Authority and do the work for him? That reads a lot cattier than it is said....
Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD
I am far more skeptical and pragmatic than that. We should all TRY to "love God and each other" daily and repent when we don't. But I for one am glad we have that "repentance" option under the grace and perfection of Christ.
It states you are to be as perfect as Christ. You state it's not likely. I find that in conflict. ALTHOUGH I guess you could say, "many called few chosen". hehe
First I hated it, and resisted it, but it had left a mark in my soul, and that mark grew until I surrendered to it.
But the scripture you Are quoting says that the evil doer hates the light and will not come to it through fear of their deeds beings exposed, and on top of that to rub it in the light was offensive to you.
The scripture says by grace we are saved, how can you possibly find saving grace offensive ?
I truely believe by the way you have worded this post copied from the Joel Osteen thread,that you were not just told Jesus loves you, you were told the full evangelical message that we are all sinners, that Jesus on a cross died for sinners and if you believe in him you will got to heaven instead of eternal were your sins deserve to send you, and it was this which offended you. If not could you please clarify exactly what it was that offended you, whether it was someone telling you Jesus loves you or that and some.
What did these people actually tell you about Jesus? Can you be clear about it.
That's OK pcamps, you don't have to believe anything you hear.
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) Love changes/attunes us to the degree which we act upon it working through us.
