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Old 10-03-2013, 07:34 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Catalyst View Post
So, you would suggest without God's willing covenant, Christ on the cross would over power HIS decisions. So much for Omnipotence, right?
I have suggested no such thing. What I said is that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone. This means that works have no part in salvation. That means that your statement below that 'if you don't have works you aren't saved,' is false.

From eternity past God knew that man would sin and that He would have to impose a penalty. He decreed the means by which He would make salvation possible. That means had to be consistent with His perfect character. Since God's justice demanded a penalty for sin which meant eternal separation from God, and since God did not desire that anyone perish, God the Father commissioned the Second Person of the Trinity to come into the human race to die on the cross. Because Jesus Christ is God, His death on the cross as man (the deity of Christ did not die) had infinite value. That means that Christ was able to pay the penalty for man in the finite period of time in which He was on the cross. The death which paid the penalty for man's sins was his spiritual death - separation from God. Jesus paid the penalty for the sins of the world while he was still physically alive. He died physically after He completed His work on the cross.
This was all planned out by God in eternity past.


Quote:
What I can say is that if you don't have works you aren't saved.

I can't say that you can do works that will save you.

But works hasn't got a p-diddly pile of worm dirt to do with ANYTHING I said. I spoke of GOD's Covenant that superseded Christ on the cross and empowered Christ on the cross. I'm guessing you went to works because it was the only angle you thought you could win? J/j. sorry,I work in sales, tough love weird humor.
I brought up works because you did bring up the issue of works in another thread. You made the same statement you make here. And you are wrong. It is legalism of the 'Lordship salvation' variety which brings works in through the back door by saying that if you don't have works then you aren't saved.
Quote:
How works factor in.
You should identify the paraphrases if not ask before you tell me I'm wrong.

You are saved by grace through faith, not works so no man can boast.
If you have faith, you will have works. (not claiming you can force faith by doing works.)
If you don't have works, you won't have faith.
If you don't have faith, you don't have grace.
Without grace you aren't saved, amen?
On the contrary. The believer out of fellowship can only produce dead works which will be burned up at the judgment seat of Christ while the believer himself is saved. (1 Cor. 3:12-15) The believer who never names his sins as per 1 John 1:9 remains out of fellowship and under the control of his old sin nature. But he is still saved. He simply has a non-productive spiritual life. (Dead faith as James put it.)

Quote:
Oh, pshaw. Noah didn't know of a messiah. Melchizidek WAS the messiah of his time. CHRIST is fashioned AFTER Melchizedek's example. You can't defend that statement with anything but presuppositions.
Noah knew of the Messiah who would come. The Messiah had been promised by God immediately after Adam fell. In Genesis 3:15b the reference is to the Messiah who would come. The gospel is as old as the fall of man.

Quote:
Teach me, where was sacrifice made for sins before the levitical law? maybe I missed it. I've not devoted weeks and months to finding it like I have other parts of this chat.
Funny, I see most of the sacrifices before Israel existed to be thanks offerings, not for sins. I'm allowing room to be wrong before I say ALL. Show me.
I said nothing about sacrifices for sin offerings in the antediluvian world. I said that God ordained animal sacrifices. There are however difference of opinion on whether or not Abel's sacrifice was a blood or bloodless offering.

As for Israel's sacrificial system, it was a very graphic way of picturing the atoning work of Christ on the Cross. Before Jesus came historically, people were saved by believing God's promise of the coming Messiah. The animal sacrifices were types or pictures of Jesus' substitutionary death on the cross.


Quote:
The gospel as you teach it, requires acknowledgement of Christ. They didn't know Christ. You can't have it both ways. That's just silly.
As stated above, before Christ came into the world, people were saved by believing God's promise of the Messiah who was to come.

Quote:
So, just ignore that the church is made after Melchizedek's. That's always a convenient way out of a discussion, just state something contradictory and ignore the stuff already said that defeats the contradictory statement? How convenient.
Your statement was, ''In Mel's time there was no "forgive sins" sacrifice. There was no Jew. Sacrifice for sins under the law didn't exist. That's why Paul said in Christ there is no Jew nor Gentile. Mel's priesthood was before they existed.''

That is not why Paul said 'in Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile.' As I stated, The reason Paul said that there is neither Jew or Gentile, is because the church is a new creation in which the distinction between Jew and Gentile does not exist within the body of Christ which is the church Both Jew and Gentile are part of the same body which is not Israel, but church. The church which is the body of Christ is formed by means of the baptism of the Holy Spirit. The church did not exist prior to the day of Pentecost 50 days after the resurrection of Christ.


Quote:
Both Jew and Gentile with MEL were the same people, there was no jew.
This comment has nothing to do with the fact that in the present Church age there is neither Jew nor Gentile, slave nor free man, male or female (Gal. 3:28). While a Jewish believer is still racially a Jew and Gentile believer is still a Gentile, both are seen by God as 'Church', which is a new creation which came into being 50 days after the resurrection of Jesus. In Christ there is an equality which otherwise does not exist.


Quote:
The fact you said that, shows me you are not reading a dang thing I said but are knee jerking. I'm embarrassed for you. I specifically answered this in my commentary no less than 2 times. You can't just ignore it and pretend I believe other than what I've said and hold any credibility.
In post #112 you denied that the cross is the very foundation of our salvation. In post #116 I told you that if you deny that then you deny the gospel of salvation.

Quote:
not scriptural. It's deduced from scripture, and the deduction can be argued against. But it's not as clear scripturally as you present it. If I'm wrong, show me.
You denied this statement that I made, ''He paid the penalty for every sin that has ever or will ever be committed so that anyone who believes on Him has eternal life.''

Jesus died for the sins of the world. He bore our sins in His own body (1 Peter 2:24)

He died once for all having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time as per Hebrews 10:10,12.

All sin was paid for by Christ on the Cross. All sin was judged on the cross.




Quote:
Before the messiah was promised everyone went to hell then.

Brilliant. Mike you need to cut the ties to evangelical parroting, and really question and investigate some of those teachings.
The above comment is with regard to this statement. ''Again salvation has always been through faith in the promised Messiah. Just as Abraham had been saved by believing the promise of God, so also was Noah.''

Romans 4:3 For what does the Scripture say? ''Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

As for Noah, he found favor with God because he also had believed God concerning the Messiah.

The Messiah was promised as soon as Adam sinned. Genesis 3:15 is a Messianic prophecy.

Quote:
Lie. The only question is was it unintentional or deliberate.
Your own words on this post both above and below show that you neither understand or believe the Gospel.


Quote:
OH GIVE ME A BREAK WHAT DO YOU WORSHIP IT IS NOT GOD!!!! NOTHING puts a demand on God. NOTHING can force his righteousness. HE NEEDS NOTHING to forgive other than His will. FOR THAT MATTER, dang near any catholic priest can forgive your sins, and any man who is led by the Spirit of God can too. At least scripture says as much. I understand that scripture is not as important as parroting the right cliches... but, for me it's PREEMINENT when it comes to theology. MINE must fit it, not it fit mine.

So God has needs. It was necessary for God to do something. Do you hear yourself? You have a very puny God. He's not omnipotent, and something in the creation has a control on Him and makes HIM have needs.
These statements show that you simply do not understand the issue involved in salvation.

You made the comments above with regard to the fact that I said that God's righteousness demanded a penalty for sin and that fallen man could not pay it, and so it was necessary for God to become man, and as perfect sinless man, pay the penalty that His righteousness demanded. Christ came into the world to die on the cross in order to reconcile man to God.

God cannot ignore any of His attributes. He is holy. His holiness consists of His righteousness and His justice. God's justice must be satisfied. God warned Adam in Genesis 2:17 that the day he ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil that he would die. That was a reference to spiritual death. He did not die physically until much later. God had to condemn Adam. Adam's sin resulted in the fall of the entire human race to come since he was the federal head. Fallen man cannot save himself. Therefore it was necessary for Christ to come into the world and go to the cross as our substitute.


Quote:
Look, let universalists be whatever they are and leave them out of the chat, it has nothing to do with anything I said. You haven't touched on the actual points I said enough to even suggest you understood what I WAS arguing. I'd like to have THAT chat if we could.
Again, this statement you made, ''YOU DO REALIZE Christ didn't have to die on the Cross, they could have done it any other way. BUT HE STILL ENDURED THAT FOR US just to show us how much He loved us, to welcome us home, as the prodigal returned home. He did it to make it sink into our heads, NOT because the blood had some control over an omnipotent God.,'' is what certain Universalists say.

Jesus had to go to the cross in order to provide salvation.

And I have directly addressed your points.




Quote:
You are a bright guy, you reason well, but you aren't engaging my actual beliefs, but giving me generic type answers that don't apply.
Again, I have directly addressed your beliefs, and many of them are not Biblical.

Quote:
Wouldn't it have been wiser to ask which ones before you declared it wouldn't? ONE shows you are talking WITH someone, the other appears you are only talk at or down to someone.
You made the following statement in post #105 which I replied to, which resulted in your statement below.

'Mike, I would suggest that a few verses where Paul mentioned the cross, doesn't over come the dozens where he discussed the way of life we should live. That was the best symbol of Christ, when (past tense) His Church did His work on earth.'

My reply was given in post #108, And what I said in no way eliminates any of Paul's teachings. And so, no, there is now need to ask which ones you think are eliminated.


Quote:
Spiritual life... you mean where you are indwelled by the Spirit, right?
Are you still in the flesh? (meaning the sinful nature...)

If so, you are not yet having a spiritual life either. Romans 8:9 I THINK THAT IS PAUL'S TEACHING!

Do you still give into temptation??? Then you do not yet walk by the spirit, Gal 5:16.

As best I can tell by how your comment was worded, that would mean you did not yet have a spiritual life, because the Bible indicates if you do, there are indicators (listed above) that would be presented in your life that are not there yet. (*depending on your answers above.)

They are not the same thing. Although you are sanctified one way at atonement/salvation and at full maturity you are sanctified in another.
Every Church age believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. But the indwelling of the Spirit is a different ministry then the filling of the Spirit. No believer is commanded to be indwelt by the Sprit, but the believer is commanded to be filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18).

The moment a person believes on Christ, he is both indwelt by the Spirit and filled with the Spirit. The first time he sins as a believer he loses the filling of the Spirit and comes under the control of the old sin nature. He regains the filling of the Spirit when he simply names the sin to God as per 1 John 1:9. He never loses the indwelling of the Spirit however. Being filled with the Spirit only puts the believer in a position to advance spiritually. The means of spiritual growth is by learning and applying the doctrines and principles of the Word of God. This is the means by which a believer grows in experiential sanctification.


Quote:
The day I live and think to impress other people, is the day I abandoned any walk with Christ.

I'd be more impressed if you assumed less and engaged more. How about it?
I am not interested in whether you are impressed with me or not. Many of your beliefs simply are not Biblical.
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:31 PM
 
Location: Dallas TX
304 posts, read 247,275 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Catalyst View Post
So, you would suggest without God's willing covenant, Christ on the cross would over power HIS decisions. So much for Omnipotence, right?
I have suggested no such thing. What I said is that salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone. This means that works have no part in salvation. That means that your statement below that 'if you don't have works you aren't saved,' is false.
So, which is it, did JESUS on the cross do it? Or was it God's covenant do it? God could have made his covenant any way he wanted. He's GOD and in his instance that isn't arrogant.

Your comment was....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike555 View Post
Yes, it is true. Eternal salvation is by faith alone in Christ alone.
You had no mention NOR THOUGHT of the covenant. God could have saved us without the Blood. In fact the blood was ONLY relevant because GOD decreed it to be. Would yo uagree with that?

You said it was by faith alone in Christ alone. WIthout that covenant faith and Christ can't save you from diddly.

So I asked, would you suggest without GOd's covenant christ on the cross would have power over GOD's decisions? That is the only logical conclusion to what you presented. If you didn't like it, change how you say it and have it more appropriate for your thought. Because as you have it now, it's a contradiction in more than a couple of ways.

either it's faith and Christ or it's the covenant. I've shown why faith and Christ are worthless without the covenant.

I've not even introduced LOVE in the picture yet. Without love being in your life, CORRECT LOVE, you aren't "going to heaven" whatever that means.
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:33 PM
 
Location: Dallas TX
304 posts, read 247,275 times
Reputation: 42
>>>>>> That means had to be consistent with His perfect character.<<<<<

God doesn't have to BE anything. HE IS GOD. HE IS LORD, whatever HE says is the law and how it is. Please, don't say God had to be anything, that's simply a pipe dream.
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:40 PM
 
Location: Dallas TX
304 posts, read 247,275 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
Quote: ME
What I can say is that if you don't have works you aren't saved.

I can't say that you can do works that will save you.

But works hasn't got a p-diddly pile of worm dirt to do with ANYTHING I said. I spoke of GOD's Covenant that superseded Christ on the cross and empowered Christ on the cross. I'm guessing you went to works because it was the only angle you thought you could win? J/j. sorry,I work in sales, tough love weird humor.<<<<<<<<<


>>>>YOU>>>>>>>I brought up works because you did bring up the issue of works in another thread. You made the same statement you make here. And you are wrong. It is legalism of the 'Lordship salvation' variety which brings works in through the back door by saying that if you don't have works then you aren't saved.
I gotta tell ya, I love being wrong and "declared legalistic" by someone that doesn't even understand what I've said. It's a uniquely "Christian" event.

Ok, if I'm wrong, then the Bible is wrong. All I did was paraphrase the Bible.

YOU are implying I say works save you. That's a lie. OR it's an error you've been corrected on more than once and should no longer be an error.

Read slowly please... seriously....
If you don't have works you aren't saved. THAT IS NOT SAYING works save you, nor that you earn a ticket to heaven.

You are saved by grace, through faith, not works so no man can boast.<<< eph 2:8-9
If you have faith, you will have works. James 1 and 2 you can find which verses, seems you need to review those chapters anyway.

You were saved to do works. Eph 2:10 is one of SEVERAL vss that say this.

If you do not have works, then that is proof positive you do not have faith. Again, james 1 and 2.

If you do not have faith, how the heck are you getting grace?

Now, to be more blunt, and/or corroborate with a THIRD NT author, go to
1 John 4:16-18

If you don't LOVE right, you aren't in Him and He's not in you. <<<< THAT PERSON<<<<<< is hell bound (assuming you buy into the hell concept.)

LOVING RIGHT will result in works, by the definition, context, and meaning of the word AGAPAO. NOT THE CLICHE'd parroted definition of the word, the usage, and meaning of the word.

ANd yet, another NT figure, some dude named JESUS repeatedly showed that works were a part of a complete Christian. HE expected them. HE saves us for them. If we refuse to do them, you can't claim HIM as lord. That would be like saying you honor your marriage as you lay in a brothel.
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:49 PM
 
Location: Dallas TX
304 posts, read 247,275 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
How works factor in.
You should identify the paraphrases if not ask before you tell me I'm wrong.

You are saved by grace through faith, not works so no man can boast.
If you have faith, you will have works. (not claiming you can force faith by doing works.)
If you don't have works, you won't have faith.
If you don't have faith, you don't have grace.
Without grace you aren't saved, amen?


On the contrary. The believer out of fellowship can only produce dead works which will be burned up at the judgment seat of Christ while the believer himself is saved. (1 Cor. 3:12-15) The believer who never names his sins as per 1 John 1:9 remains out of fellowship and under the control of his old sin nature. But he is still saved. He simply has a non-productive spiritual life. (Dead faith as James put it.) <<<<<<
==================
"on the contrary", means you refuse James teaching, and Paul's teaching. Ok. I didn't realize you had that authority to over ride their teaching. Those were verses from either one or the other. YOU know better than them, is what your comment implies. At least in your own mind. Because your words and application of scripture contradict those vss I paraphrased, and several others.

A believer out of fellowship is not yet mature. He is still sinning, and needs more darkness to be washed away. You aren't in fellowship until the darkness is washed away and the LIGHT is all that is left, then you are walking in the light AS HE DOES. No less, not one bit less bright a light than HIM. (Eph 4.)

Fellowship has nothing to do with the works.
BUT the first verse you quote, says that works play a part...
1Cr 3:14
If any man’s work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward.

Thanks for supporting me. The one's whose works remains... the one who bore fruit.... the one who fed the least of them, fed God. The Charity, agapao that must be there for you to be His.

You are saved to do works. ARE YOU SAYING THOSE ARE INHERENTLY DEAD WORKS IF YOU TRY TO DO THEM?

If you do NOT try to do them, you are spitting in God's face. THAT WAS WHAT YOU WERE MADE TO DO. YOU SERVE GOD< NOT HIM SERVING YOU. HE"S NOT a KNIGHT at a drive through window, that gives you what you pray for and gives you fries with it too. YOU SERVE HIM.

YOU ARE HIS INSTRUMENT, or TOOL for righteousness. RIGHTEOUSNESS are ACTS that are righteous. ACTS are works, in EVERY example in the NT.

Last time I try with you, after this you and fin can sit in woowoo land and entertain each other.

NOWHERE have I said works save you.

That is all you are ranting about.

Get it right or don't comment, it's a waste of time. You aren't even arguing with what I'm saying. You quote it, but then you say something that has nothing to do with what you quoted.

BUT I WILL REMEMBER if I'm studying JAMES anytime soon, or PAUL that I need to unignore you, so I can get the UPDATED version, since you decreed that their statements I paraphrased were wrong.
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:51 PM
 
Location: Dallas TX
304 posts, read 247,275 times
Reputation: 42
Every Church age believer is indwelt by the Holy Spirit. But the indwelling of the Spirit is a different ministry then the filling of the Spirit. No believer is commanded to be indwelt by the Sprit, but the believer is commanded to be filled with the Spirit (Eph. 5:18).<<<<<<

another example.

You don't even acknowledge what I said and why. You just ignore it, pretend it doesn't exist and try to ram an opposing view down my throat.

You aren't worth trying to talk to if this is how it's going to be every time.

ROMANS 8:9 says if the SPIRIT INDWELLS YOU, then you are not in the flesh.

Do you still give into temptations of the flesh???? THen you are still living in the flesh/sinful nature. THEN according to PAUL, whom you assumed to become his editor in the last post, you are NOT indwelled by the Spirit.

Paul contradicts you, and you abuse eph 5:18.

I present romans 8:9 simplified, but with the exact, clear and concise message it was written with.
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Old 10-03-2013, 09:53 PM
 
Location: Dallas TX
304 posts, read 247,275 times
Reputation: 42
I'm going to try to take a break here. I'll be back, carry on, play well with others.

I'm getting frustrated after about a dozen in a row comments that are obsessing and ranting over strawman issues I didn't say and rather than understanding what I said, prefer to attack me with strawmen.

I get frustrated, and I'm really close to being a butt and lashing back with an intense dose of what they are giving me. So I need to cool off.

Ta Ta kiddos.

Play nice.
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Old 10-03-2013, 10:01 PM
 
Location: Pikeville, Ky.
13,570 posts, read 21,712,120 times
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Moderator cut: suggestion

Just a very small piece of advice dear ones from a sleepy mod

Please read posts carefully. I just deleted lots of posts because one person misread anothers post and people answered that post and assumed something was said that actually wasn't causing a few sidebar posts that had to be deleted.

I now bid you all a peaceful and blessed good night.
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Last edited by Miss Blue; 10-03-2013 at 10:11 PM..
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Old 10-04-2013, 01:58 AM
 
21,812 posts, read 16,674,400 times
Reputation: 8654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Catalyst View Post
So, which is it, did JESUS on the cross do it? Or was it God's covenant do it? God could have made his covenant any way he wanted. He's GOD and in his instance that isn't arrogant.

Your comment was....

You had no mention NOR THOUGHT of the covenant. God could have saved us without the Blood. In fact the blood was ONLY relevant because GOD decreed it to be. Would yo uagree with that?

You said it was by faith alone in Christ alone. WIthout that covenant faith and Christ can't save you from diddly.

So I asked, would you suggest without GOd's covenant christ on the cross would have power over GOD's decisions? That is the only logical conclusion to what you presented. If you didn't like it, change how you say it and have it more appropriate for your thought. Because as you have it now, it's a contradiction in more than a couple of ways.

either it's faith and Christ or it's the covenant. I've shown why faith and Christ are worthless without the covenant.

I've not even introduced LOVE in the picture yet. Without love being in your life, CORRECT LOVE, you aren't "going to heaven" whatever that means.
You really do not know what you are talking about. Because of Christ's atoning work on the Cross, salvation is made possible for man. Whenever a person simply trusts in Jesus Christ for eternal life, he is eternally saved. Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone.

Your question about whether Christ would have power over God's decisions without God's covenant doesn't make any sense. Jesus Christ, who IS God, the Second Person of the Trinity, was commissioned by God the Father to come into the world as a member of the human race and go to the Cross where He bore the sins of the world in His body and paid the penalty for them. As a result, anyone who trusts in Christ is imputed with the righteousness of God and declared justified. The result is that he is born again and eternally saved.

As for the blood, the phrase 'the blood of Christ' is not a reference to His literal physical blood. It is a synonym for His spiritual death on the Cross. The penalty for sin is spiritual death which is separation from God. For unsaved mankind this results in eternal separation from God in the lake of fire. But Jesus Christ who is God, died spiritually on the Cross as man. Because Jesus is God, His spiritual death as a man had infinite value, and so He was able to pay the penalty which sin had brought upon the human race as He hung on the Cross. While God the Father was judging Jesus Christ for our sins, in our place, as our substitute, He had to turn His back as it were on Christ. This was Jesus' spiritual death - His separation from the Father. This is why He cried out, 'My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me. (Matthew 27:46.)

Jesus absolutely had to go to the Cross in order to pay for the sins of the world. That was God's pre determined plan in eternity past. God's justice demanded spiritual death as the penalty for sin, and Jesus paid the penalty in our place.

As for covenants; all covenants were made with Israel (Romans 9:4). Not with the church. The New Covenant to Israel Luke 22:19-20; Jeremiah 31:31-34 was instituted by the Cross and will go into effect for the Jews when Christ returns and establishes His Millennial kingdom. The New Covenant to Israel was dependent on Christ's work on the Cross. While the New Covenant is to Israel, the Church gets to share in the blessings now, and be partakers with Israel.

Again, salvation is by grace alone (God did all the work), through faith alone (works are excluded) in Christ alone (He is the object of faith.

Having the right kind of love has nothing to do with the issue of eternal salvation. A person's eternal salvation is not dependent on how he lives. Only on having trusted in the finished work of Christ on the cross.
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Old 10-04-2013, 02:15 AM
 
21,812 posts, read 16,674,400 times
Reputation: 8654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Catalyst View Post
>>>>>> That means had to be consistent with His perfect character.<<<<<

God doesn't have to BE anything. HE IS GOD. HE IS LORD, whatever HE says is the law and how it is. Please, don't say God had to be anything, that's simply a pipe dream.
God has to be what He is. He cannot do anything which is contrary to His nature. Since God is perfect Holiness which is the combination of His righteousness and justice, He must satisfy His righteous requirements. Sin is a violation of God's perfect character. Therefore God's righteousness required God to judge sin. The result was that God had to impose the penalty of spiritual death - separation from God on Adam when he sinned. Because of Adam's original sin the entire human race fell with Adam since we are born in Adam. But God had the solution to man's sin problem. That solution was for the Second Person of the Trinity to become man and pay the penalty in place of fallen mankind. As a result, when anyone simply trusts in Christ for salvation he is credited with God's own perfect righteousness and receives the free gift of eternal life.
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