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Old 10-02-2013, 07:10 AM
 
9,881 posts, read 6,754,693 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MysticPhD View Post
The Bible contains God-inspired content . . . but it is neither infallible, inerrant nor God's word . . . Christ is God's Word. The Bible contains interpretations recording the superstitious beliefs and savage concepts of God that our ignorant ancestors believed. If you are a Biblean . . . we have nothing to say to each other. If you do not understand or appreciate Bible scholarship that employs the full extant knowledge available to us . . . you are not equipped to understand my views.
Exactly!!!!!!!!!
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Old 10-02-2013, 07:36 AM
 
9,881 posts, read 6,754,693 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Catalyst View Post
That's a big confusion of the word LOGOS. In fact it's a new definition entirely. May I see your Koine Greek credentials to make that move? And what have your peers said? Was it argument or approval?



So, you feel a need to note that you are not ignorant. Interestingly enough, we are much MUCH more ignorant than those who lived and walked with Christ were. It's funny you call the people who lived it and walked it ignorant, when by definition they were intrinsically infinitely more knowledgeable than you or I on the topics.



To be sure, if you are one who must put me in a box and ad hominemmly dismiss me to hold your points, we truly do not have anything to discuss. I'd do more for the world talking to a plant and feeding them air. Don't put me in a box to discredit me, stick to the arguments. If you can't refute them, just admit it or even skip it. There's no need to try to redefine me to suit your needs. You don't know me.



Now you must POSTURE as not only being "not ignorant" but of a higher authority.

What exactly is that PhD in? I know "Mystic" is a type of Shroom the college kids enjoy... perhaps???

Mystic, truly I have no beef with you personally, but you keep making it personal by implying you are smarter than everyone and know more than everyone. The people who walked and talked it... were not as smart as you, they were ignorant, which means uneducated. The irony is, all you know of the situation is what those IGNORANT people wrote in the book for you to study, but THEY are somehow the ignorant ones, and you taking second hand knowledge from an ignorant (by your standards) persons can be more informed.

Then you presume that I'm not worthy of discussing with you because I'm some ad hominem you threw at me.

Is PhD on your name just to garner some credibility? Because the more you talk and try to put me down to hold your "status" the less I believe the PhD is relevant. So I'm asking nicely, can you stick to the arguments and not trying to cram me in a random box you can denigrate?

I am a Catholic and the Catechism states the bible is the word of God. However, this word of God was written down by men and hence has some imperfections. I don't think it is a big deal.
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Old 10-02-2013, 08:24 AM
 
Location: Dallas TX
304 posts, read 247,677 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
How in the world could you think that anyone at any time was saved "by the law"?
That's easy, because GOD promised they were. I guess you would call God out for being a liar? That's the difference in you and me. For me He is LORD, I have no right to call Him out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
It would be possible if someone was able to keep the law PERFECTLY, but no one ever did or has, excepting our Lord Jesus Christ.
That doesn't even make sense if you understand the Covenant God made to the Jews when the laws were given. The way the Pharisees tried to keep the law was in an earn it way, not an out of love for God way and they failed miserably. But that is a condemnation of them, not the law. It's GOd's Law to the Jews, not the Gentiles. It was to set them apart as a Holy Nation.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
WE are in a fashion, "saved by works". The thing is, not our own works which always condemn us but by Christ's works when they are applied to us, by faith in Him and what he did on our behalf.
:-| Really? So what does that have to do with the above. You aren't a jew are you? You were never under the law. You are all over the map here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
The fact the law saved no one does not make God in any way a liar.
He says by the shedding of that blood you will be saved. How in the hades roasting flames, is that not then, a lie? Or a broken promise/covenant? Is God a covenant breaker?

Before the law God forgave sins...
Exo 10:17 (NASB) Now therefore forgive, I pray thee, my sin only this once, and intreat the LORD your God, that he may take away from me this death only.

After the law, to the Jewish people,
Leviticus 4:35
35 And all its fat he shall remove as the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar, on top of the Lord’s food offerings. And the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.

Now, in all the theological Stuffs I've read "Atoned for" is forgiven in effect. If the sins are atoned for, the blotter is clear, the scales in balance, you have nothing against your person. Did Lev 4:35 misrepresent God's promise?

Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post
The potential to be saved is there but no one attained it.
To be saved under the law, was never about keeping the law. it was about Grace as much as Jesus death was. They were both things that God gave us to convince US he would forgive us. You see Moses, before the law praying for forgiveness.

You had the priesthood of Melchizedek before him. Ignoring those parts of this discussion does not make you right. It makes you incomplete.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lucknow View Post

Just consider the man that as far as I know was the only man in the bible that God called, "A man after my own heart". A great prophet of God and a King over Israel. King David is most certainly saved and from our human perspective he was a far worse sinner than most of us will ever be. He was guilty of murdering a man in order to have that man's wife who he was already committing adultery with. So, do you think David was "saved by the law"? Of course not! He was saved in the exact same way that all the people of God, since the beginning have been saved.Faith and trust in the promises of God. That's it, there is no other way.
I agree with the bold part. And since God promised those blood sacrifices would forgive them their sins, I trust him. Why don't you?
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Old 10-02-2013, 08:31 AM
 
Location: Dallas TX
304 posts, read 247,677 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
I am a Catholic and the Catechism states the bible is the word of God. However, this word of God was written down by men and hence has some imperfections. I don't think it is a big deal.
I didn't even comment on this part. I don't' have an issue with you looking at it this way.

I had an issue with Mystic repeatedly using attempts to discredit me with condescension, and pretending they were such a superior intellect to avoid the conversation.

I hope that is clear.

My personal view is the message is inerrant, not the words/translations etc...

I'm certainly not cocky enough to say that I know more than someone who walked and lived with Jesus. Which was Mystic's position.

They weren't stupid people at the time of Christ. We still study their math in schools. We still can't duplicate their engineering. They actually knew enough about medicine to drill holes in head to relieve swelling. They did surgeries. They killed infections. They made boats that are STILL the design used to day for efficiency. Some of the greatest military minds the world has known came from then. The basic outline for governments, ALL democratic governments in the world came from them. Politics came from them. Philosophy came from them. Before science discovered the ATOM, it was imagined by a philosopher who lived before Christ, (I think I'm right there, but of that era).

They weren't inbred hillbilly rednecks with missing teeth that couldn't spell. To boldly sit there and explain they were ignorant, is one very arrogant, hubris laden, cocky view of one's self. AND it prevents conversation, it insults me Moderator cut: deleted

Last edited by june 7th; 10-02-2013 at 03:17 PM.. Reason: Encourages flame wars among members.
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Old 10-02-2013, 08:47 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,182,452 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Catalyst View Post
Well, the Jews were saved under the law. .
The Jews were not saved under the law:

Romans 1:17
For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Romans 4:13
It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
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Old 10-02-2013, 08:54 AM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,182,452 times
Reputation: 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by MoonBeam33 View Post
Now, before anyone goes ballistic or starts throwing Bible verses at me, please hear me out.

Yes, I understand that the cross is the most widely recognized symbol of Christianity throughout the world. But it is also a symbol of death. As I understand it, crucifixion was fairly common at the time, so it is not even Jesus specific. That is where it is believed he died, NOT a symbol of resurrection.

Think of it this way - If a leader of your religious order were beheaded or hung, would you wear a mini guillotine or noose around your neck? Even if it were all blinged out or sparkly gold, it would just be weird.

I don't understand why the cross rather than the stylized fish - or any other positive symbol - became more representative of Christianity.
The cross (especially the empty cross) is positive symbol because "God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith."

Hebrews 9:22
In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.
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Old 10-02-2013, 09:45 AM
 
Location: Dallas TX
304 posts, read 247,677 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by twin.spin View Post
The Jews were not saved under the law:

Romans 1:17
For in the gospel the righteousness of God is revealed—a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

Romans 4:13
It was not through the law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
Leviticus 4:35
35 And all its fat he shall remove cas the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar, on top of the Lord’s food offerings. dAnd the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.

And Paul even said that the sacrifices had to be made over and over, but he didn't deny it.

God's promise and direction, through Moses was the sacrificed atoned for their sin.

Christ on the cross atoned for sin.

God promised people for both that would reconcile their sins.

Paul also said, if you live by the law you will be judged by the law, but you turn your back on the Grace of Christ. he didn't say you will go to hell because you were under the law. He didn't deny the law saved, he taught it was a harder row to hoe.
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Old 10-02-2013, 12:34 PM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
56,259 posts, read 54,712,832 times
Reputation: 66774
Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
I guess this type of thing bothers you:
I am not sure I understand how you leapt to extrapolate that out of my post. What bothers me more than anything is when someone takes my words and tries to make it seem as if I said something other than what I said. Please stop. Thank you.

The Christ statue in Brazil is NOTHING remotely likely a cheesy roadside fatal-accident memorial. NOTHING. It's a beautiful piece of artwork.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
For me the images bring me closer to God. BTW, there is no such thing as idolatry in the catholic Church.
I'm aware. Again, please don't try to make it seem as if I said something I did not say. Thanks.

But I don't really feel the same way--that the images bring me closer to God. Again, that's probably a Protestant upbringing vs. a Catholic one.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
These images enhance the human spirit as people worship God. My wife almost always has a cross in her neck.

Same thing with a church architecture. I rather go to a very old church that smells like a church with as many statues and images as possible. There is no idolatry, but when walks in the smell of incense lets you know you are in the house of God.
I agree. I LOVE old churches, and since I work in/near New York City, there are some beautiful churches there. For me as an Episcopalian, there is nothing like Ash Wednesday at Trinity Church Wall Street. David's Psalm is sung in Latin as they impose the ashes, and the incense is burning.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian658 View Post
I think it has to do with how we grew up. The imprints in childhood are powerful.
Yes. What we do need to learn to, however, is loosen our prejudices and thinking we are "right" against those who grew up in different traditions.
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Old 10-02-2013, 12:37 PM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
56,259 posts, read 54,712,832 times
Reputation: 66774
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fran66 View Post
I've got news for you: This earth and this universe are the house of God. If you're not seeing that every day and night, you're missing a lot of God.
Love it. Beautifully said. I feel God in the woods and at the ocean more than I do next to a man-made piece of art, no matter how beautifully executed.
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Old 10-02-2013, 12:53 PM
 
Location: arizona ... most of the time
11,826 posts, read 10,182,452 times
Reputation: 1308
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Catalyst View Post
Leviticus 4:35
35 And all its fat he shall remove cas the fat of the lamb is removed from the sacrifice of peace offerings, and the priest shall burn it on the altar, on top of the Lord’s food offerings. dAnd the priest shall make atonement for him for the sin which he has committed, and he shall be forgiven.

And Paul even said that the sacrifices had to be made over and over, but he didn't deny it.

God's promise and direction, through Moses was the sacrificed atoned for their sin.

Christ on the cross atoned for sin.

God promised people for both that would reconcile their sins.

Paul also said, if you live by the law you will be judged by the law, but you turn your back on the Grace of Christ. he didn't say you will go to hell because you were under the law. He didn't deny the law saved, he taught it was a harder row to hoe.
Galatians 2:21
I do not set aside the grace of God, for if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!”
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