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Old 10-04-2013, 03:11 PM
 
Location: Dallas TX
304 posts, read 248,129 times
Reputation: 42

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Supine View Post
For some--like children--the first step to not doing wrong might need to be out of a motivation of fear. "You do that an d I'm going to spank you, or ground you, or take away your toys."

As one matures spiritually maybe love of Jesus surpasses fear of hell and they obey all His commands and are willing to suffer for Him out of love for him.
Let's just break this down. Have you ever diagrammed sentences?
| \
---------------------------------
| \

Subject verb predicate....

Let's do something like that except in a paragraph, not sentence.


1 John 4:16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us.

The word for KNOW there is the one used for KNOW YOUR WIFE. IT's an experiential knowledge, not just a logical conclusion. So, it's a different word but you could word it like, we have come to experience and have believed that love.....


God is love,

Err, don't think there is much to break down there... That is the standard, the Canon for Love.

and the one who abides in love abides in God,

Ok, abiding in love, and abiding in God are directly related.
If you did not abide in Love, would you abide in God? You could maybe read it both ways HERE, but corroborating with other verses I think the conclusion is if you don't love you don't abide in God.

and God abides in him.

Same issue as the above part. God abides in you if YOU abide in love.

17 By this, love is perfected with us,

Remember perfect means mature. When that abiding occurs it's mature...

so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment;

for the record, THIS is when you have eternal security, AFTER this maturity process is complete.

because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love;

Ummm in mature love, there is no fear.

but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment,

This is what you are trying to teach people up there... That fear is good. If you are preaching hell fire and brimstone, sin will send you to hell, which makes GOD a FASCIST GOD, but you are trying to lead people to the Perfect LOVE that has no fear, by forcing them to be focused on their fear.

You lead them FROM God, not to God.


and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

If that perfected/matured love is what eliminates fear, then if you fear you do not have that perfected love.

What does John say that means?

You aren't in Him and He's not in you.

Most people want to YEAH, BUT.... here.
Spare me.
Show me it does not say that before there are any buts on the table.
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Old 10-04-2013, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,777,355 times
Reputation: 1595
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Here is your classic "low road" or "glass half empty" view.

First it is not an accurate picture of universal salvation through Christ.
Second it assumes that it is "holy" or "just" that someone or something should be tormented or tortured forever.

There is a certain sense of failed logic here:
1. God is good
2. Everything God does is good
3. Therefore it must be good that God throws some into a place of eternal suffering

And also somehow, still, God is love.
So God is "too small", if He, being good, holy, just, and love itself, doesn't cause others to be tormented forever as punishment.

In reality we are not talking about punishment here, but simple sadistic torture. No one argues that people shouldn't get their due punishment ie. reaping what they sow. But it is the sadistic nature that leads to the above failed logic of God being "too small" if He doesn't torture people forever.
Amen, Legoman. I guess I don't understand why it has to be infinitely severe beyond our imagination in order to be considered just punishment? I wonder where that spirit comes from? I tell you what - people who believe such are the same people who cut their children off from the family FOREVER if they stray from what the parent thinks they ought to do and be. I've seen that many times in real life -- it is the saddest thing to witness.
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Old 10-04-2013, 03:16 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,777,355 times
Reputation: 1595
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supine View Post
Christians say God is love and just. Christians say God has His own laws yet is merciful. The laws of God is what makes ascertaining truth as objective. Absent of God having laws then there is no truth, and abducting, raping, and murdering a child may not immoral.

How can this person presiding over a court in the United States be loving if they sentence a person to life in prison? Going by your assumptions of loving. Especially, if as atheists say this life is the only one you have, that life after death does not exist. How does a loving atheist steal the only life a person has for what is tantamount to the "eternity" of that person's life?
Life in prison is finite. The Orthodox doctrine of hell is not, not to mention no one is sentenced to be tortured for life - did you ever wonder why?

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Old 10-04-2013, 03:18 PM
 
11,305 posts, read 11,319,826 times
Reputation: 3489
Quote:
Originally Posted by Supine View Post
Yeah, like the fear of falling a sleep smoking a cigarette. I have a fear of killing some kid while driving drunk and that fear motivates me to avoid doing so if I can.

So what? Are we to abandon prisons and do away with a police force in the United States simply because fear arrest and incarceration has not converted every single soul in the U.S. into a law abiding and/or angelic soul.

Fear of hell can be balanced with a trust in Christ if one is obeying His commandments and growing ever closer to Him with love.

For some--like children--the first step to not doing wrong might need to be out of a motivation of fear. "You do that an d I'm going to spank you, or ground you, or take away your toys."

As one matures spiritually maybe love of Jesus surpasses fear of hell and they obey all His commands and are willing to suffer for Him out of love for him.

St. Bernadette was like that. I'm not a saint, she is. I pray to her, she doesn't pray to me. She joined the convent, I took the easy way out and I did not join the priesthood but rather the Marine Corps.

My life has broken sooooooo many of God's laws and my life has been so wicked I need to fear hell. I'd be stupid not to. And I've been stupid a while, I still am to a good degree. But my fear of hell is drawing me closer to realizing my need to repent and change my life.


Every photo of St Bernadette - YouTube
Doesn't it say somewhere in Revelation, "But the fearful....shall have their part in the lake of fire" ?
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Old 10-04-2013, 03:18 PM
 
Location: Florida
5,965 posts, read 5,777,355 times
Reputation: 1595
Quote:
Originally Posted by Finn_Jarber View Post
It sure seems like people who can't stop taking about hell are the ones who claim it does not exist. It looks like they are desperately trying to convince themselves of something
It sure seems like it bothers you for Universalists to talk about hell because you always say this whenever they do. Every time. Hell needs to be talked about since it is a very serious topic.
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Old 10-04-2013, 03:23 PM
 
Location: Dallas TX
304 posts, read 248,129 times
Reputation: 42
Quote:
Originally Posted by thrillobyte View Post
Doesn't it say somewhere in Revelation, "But the fearful....shall have their part in the lake of fire" ?
That lake of fire, was a reference or an image to a place outside of town where the bodies and the trash was burning all the time.

It wasn't a torture thing.

It was where that which was abandoned went to.

Thus, John talks about being with God, and NOT being with God, not burning in Hell in His epistle.
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Old 10-04-2013, 03:26 PM
 
Location: New England
32,375 posts, read 21,201,910 times
Reputation: 2296
Quote:
Originally Posted by Heartsong View Post
It sure seems like it bothers you for Universalists to talk about hell because you always say this whenever they do. Every time. Hell needs to be talked about since it is a very serious topic.
And it seems some can't stop defending it now why would they want to do that ? . I would say it is Because of their own fear of it and keeping others in the same boat as them.
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Old 10-04-2013, 03:28 PM
 
11,305 posts, read 11,319,826 times
Reputation: 3489
Quote:
Originally Posted by legoman View Post
Here is your classic "low road" or "glass half empty" view.

First it is not an accurate picture of universal salvation through Christ.
Second it assumes that it is "holy" or "just" that someone or something should be tormented or tortured forever.

There is a certain sense of failed logic here:
1. God is good
2. Everything God does is good
3. Therefore it must be good that God throws some into a place of eternal suffering

And also somehow, still, God is love.
So God is "too small", if He, being good, holy, just, and love itself, doesn't cause others to be tormented forever as punishment.

In reality we are not talking about punishment here, but simple sadistic torture. No one argues that people shouldn't get their due punishment ie. reaping what they sow. But it is the sadistic nature that leads to the above failed logic of God being "too small" if He doesn't torture people forever.


Quote:
Amen, Legoman. I guess I don't understand why it has to be infinitely severe beyond our imagination in order to be considered just punishment? I wonder where that spirit comes from? I tell you what - people who believe such are the same people who cut their children off from the family FOREVER if they stray from what the parent thinks they ought to do and be. I've seen that many times in real life -- it is the saddest thing to witness.




Yes, i meant to comment on this earlier, lego. It's like the eternal tormentists are trying to jam all the pieces of the puzzle into place using a sledgehammer. The logic of their flow of thought totally escapes me. God is Love but God is also Hate. God is Mercy but God is also a Sadist. God wants to save you but God can't wait to throw away the key to the door of hell once He puts you there.

None of this adds up for me. Of course they will say, "Because you are not a Christian." Well, if that's what Christianity is all about, watching your loved ones burn in torment in hell and doing a jigg like an idiot up in heaven and shouting "Glory to God" as you watch them burn, I suppose I don't any part of that, and neither would any sane, rational, straight-thinking human being with an ounce of compassion---unless, of course, he was an eternal tormentist.

PS what in the heck is wrong with the word j-i-g??
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Old 10-04-2013, 03:51 PM
 
2,532 posts, read 2,023,761 times
Reputation: 327
PS 19:9 "The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether." Clean because it is mixed with mercy for the repentant and peace that endues forever, not sadistic.

PS 111:10 The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: a good understanding have all they that do His commandments: His praise endures for ever.

PROV 16:6 "By mercy and truth iniquity is purged: and by the fear of the LORD men depart from evil."

PROV 29:25 "The fear of man brings a snare: but whoso puts his trust in the LORD shall be safe." The fear of man has torment but perfect love cast out the irrational fears of man."
The fear of the Lord is not defined by some peoples understanding who think of it as torment or a snare but by what God says about it. His fear is good.

Jesus was well acquainted with the clean fear of the Lord.
IS 11:2-3 "And the Spirit of the LORD shall rest upon Him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD; And shall make Him of quick understanding in the fear of the LORD:"
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Old 10-04-2013, 06:06 PM
 
40,297 posts, read 26,868,743 times
Reputation: 6070
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xian Catalyst View Post
Let's just break this down. Have you ever diagrammed sentences?
Subject verb predicate....

Let's do something like that except in a paragraph, not sentence.


1 John 4:16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us.

The word for KNOW there is the one used for KNOW YOUR WIFE. IT's an experiential knowledge, not just a logical conclusion. So, it's a different word but you could word it like, we have come to experience and have believed that love.....


God is love,

Err, don't think there is much to break down there... That is the standard, the Canon for Love.

and the one who abides in love abides in God,

Ok, abiding in love, and abiding in God are directly related.
If you did not abide in Love, would you abide in God? You could maybe read it both ways HERE, but corroborating with other verses I think the conclusion is if you don't love you don't abide in God.

and God abides in him.

Same issue as the above part. God abides in you if YOU abide in love.

17 By this, love is perfected with us,

Remember perfect means mature. When that abiding occurs it's mature...

so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment;

for the record, THIS is when you have eternal security, AFTER this maturity process is complete.

because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18 There is no fear in love;

Ummm in mature love, there is no fear.

but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment,

This is what you are trying to teach people up there... That fear is good. If you are preaching hell fire and brimstone, sin will send you to hell, which makes GOD a FASCIST GOD, but you are trying to lead people to the Perfect LOVE that has no fear, by forcing them to be focused on their fear.

You lead them FROM God, not to God.


and the one who fears is not perfected in love.

If that perfected/matured love is what eliminates fear, then if you fear you do not have that perfected love.

What does John say that means?

You aren't in Him and He's not in you.

Most people want to YEAH, BUT.... here.
Spare me.
Show me it does not say that before there are any buts on the table.
This should be made a sticky and everyone who believes that our God would create and use an eternal torment Hell should be made to read it and read it and read it until it sinks in just how ludicrous it is to think that is how our loving Father God would be.

This is particularly important:

1 John 4:16 We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us.

The word for KNOW there is the one used for KNOW YOUR WIFE. IT's an experiential knowledge, not just a logical conclusion. So, it's a different word but you could word it like, we have come to experience and have believed that love.....

I have experienced that love and it instantly erased my atheism and changed my entire life! You cannot experience it and believe in an ET Hell . . . or any of the other evil things attributed to God by our ignorant savage ancestors.
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